Composer-arrangers : Do you NEED a strong melody?

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:40 pm

Hey guys,
so for those of you who arrange your own compositions ... do any of you ever start arranging from "nothing" or very little melodic content, essentially creating the melody for a piece as you arrange?

I find myself often writing an awesome punchy intro or some cool fills over chords without having written a melody, and then it's MINDBLOWINGLY tough, both to create a compelling melody OVER cool brass punches in the background, AND to sever myself from my love of what I've written prior to writing the melody (and to be willing to change/cut it if needbe).

I think my struggle comes from that I can make a good big band arrangement for an existing melody, but I don't seem to have a strong sense for creating GOOD melodies, and I really love arranging music above all else. I like composition but part of what grieves me is exactly THAT my melodies are never all that great to begin with - and when I shoehorn a mediocre melody into an already-intersting arrangement the product is almost ALWAYS better than when I try to write a leadsheet (or for ex. melody and chords alone) first and THEN make an arrangement around it.

Maybe I'm locking my brain too much into the "final" melody when really it ought to be more fluid for the sake of arranging? No clue...

Any thoughts on this?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:46 pm

Ever hear a tune called "Intermission Riff"? What's the melody?

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:47 pm

QuoteDo you NEED a strong melody?
Do you need anyone to want to hear this piece again?

(the answer to that is the answer)

ttf_Andrew Meronek · Post by **ttf_Andrew Meronek** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:57 pm

A good chunk of pop music out nowadays has no strong melody. Turn Down For What, for example.

And there's plenty of examples in jazz and classical music of melodically weak tunes that are well-liked, like Intermission Riff or Music For 18 Musicians.

So, no.

IMHO what you *do* need is a strong idea of what you want to accomplish. All of the above-mentioned examples have that.

Figuring out how to write a good melody is a whole subject unto itself.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:52 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 15, 2018, 03:46PMEver hear a tune called "Intermission Riff"? What's the melody?

I had never heard that tune before. Looked it up on Youtube and listened to a Stan Kenton performance.

My most charitable hope is that it was created as a parody of everything people grew to hate about big band music and what caused the audience to run away.

A collection of "worst practices" that you should not imitate.

A completely unconvincing case for the argument that melody is not important.

That's what I heard.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:19 pm

Well, Rob, you certainly are not in the majority here. Intermission Riff was one of Kenton's biggest hits. And it's really nothing but riffs and background type music.

One thing that great arrangers do is work with a good melody and make it interesting with chords, riffs, countermelodies, and fills. In fact, some composers were not terribly good arrangers. Mussorgsky wrote Pictures at an Exhibition for piano but we remember the arrangement by Ravel.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:25 pm

Check out "Blue Shades" by Frank Ticheli. Just so happens I've played that recently and you can listen online... http://207windorchestra.com/listen-something-old-something-new-something-borrowed-something-blue/ scroll down and you can give it a listen. Really fun bass trombone part. But I digress...

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:48 pm

A good melody helps, sure, but it's by no means necessary for a piece to be good or even memorable.

Think of it, probably the most recognizable piece of classical music of all times doesn't really have a proper melody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxSkaepmGQ0

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:58 pm

I am very doubtful that "Intermission Riff" and Beethoven's Fifth are of equal merit.

I am extremely doubtful that "Intermission Riff" and Beethoven's Fifth are of equal merit.

I realize the musical pundits like to claim that Beethoven was a poor melodist but... somehow he came up with the most-remember four-note melody in Western civilization. There is nothing like that in "Intermission Riff"

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:27 pm

Well nobody claims that music with no good melody is going to be necessarily good, just that SOME music without a good melody can be good, and therefore a good melody is not an absolute prerequisite to a piece being good.

I'm also not saying Beethoven was not a good melodist. But his genius resided not in his melodies but in other aspects of his writing. In fact Beethoven 5 is the perfect example, the whole genius of the piece is not to have come up with this 4-note motif (which is not a bad melody, it's not a melody to begin with), it's the ways he uses it as a building block to erect this big musical structure. Not many composers could have made such a good piece using that motif, and we wouldn't remember them for their melody either. That 4 note pattern is not in itself memorable, what he does with it is.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:44 pm

Rap. Need I say more?

ttf_Graham Martin · Post by **ttf_Graham Martin** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:53 pm

I believe that by definition 'arranging' needs a melody and almost always, a set of chords which indicates how the melody is to be harmonized. Those words are from Nelson Riddle but other arrangers say something very similar.

I think you are talking about composing, and myself I do not think that trying to compose in the context of an arrangement is the best way to come up with a strong melody.

This is not to say there are not many successful composer/arrangers but they nearly all start off with the melody in lead sheet format with the chords they were hearing when they wrote it. And sometimes, particularly for jazz, tunesmiths, start with the chords and write the melody based on these.

Then the arranging side takes over, with preliminary planning followed by the detail. Read the index of any good arranging book to see what these processes involve. Much to complex to go into in a brief post.

This is the time-honoured approach to both composing and arranging.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:55 pm

When I was in college they told us "music is organized sound".

No, you don't need melody for that but is that really the bar we should shoot for?

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Jan 15, 2018, 03:57PMA good chunk of pop music out nowadays has no strong melody. Turn Down For What, for example.

Btu how long will it be remembered?

ttf_Andrew Meronek · Post by **ttf_Andrew Meronek** » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:24 am

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jan 15, 2018, 07:48PMA good melody helps, sure, but it's by no means necessary for a piece to be good or even memorable.

Think of it, probably the most recognizable piece of classical music of all times doesn't really have a proper melody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxSkaepmGQ0

Hah! I thought this would be the Pachelbel Canon.

ttf_Andrew Meronek · Post by **ttf_Andrew Meronek** » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:25 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 15, 2018, 07:58PMI am very doubtful that "Intermission Riff" and Beethoven's Fifth are of equal merit.

I don't think anyone here said that these are of equal merit. Just two examples to discuss.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:01 am

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jan 15, 2018, 07:48PMA good melody helps, sure, but it's by no means necessary for a piece to be good or even memorable.

Think of it, probably the most recognizable piece of classical music of all times doesn't really have a proper melody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxSkaepmGQ0
The second movement. A good melodie.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:10 am

Arvo Part's music often has no melody. But Fratres shows up in movies more often than you'd think, and many people would find it familiar, even if they don't know who Part is.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:41 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jan 16, 2018, 05:01AMThe second movement. A good melodie.

Yes indeed! That's what I respond whenever people say he couldn't write a good melody based on the fact that of his memorable music is not based on strong melodies. Plenty examples of gorgeous melodies to be found.

That being said people remember the first movement most, not the second, which further highlights the fact that a piece with no strong melody can be more memorable than a piece that has strong melodies.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:56 am

Beethoven 7 has what is for me his most memorable melody.

edit -- ....outside of his piano sonatas of course.

ttf_robbo · Post by **ttf_robbo** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:47 am

Yes, I'd say you do need a strong melody, but.... I've not been able to achieve it

I can hear the tune in my head to most Glenn Miller tunes, but barely any of mine!! I tend to back my charts with my arranging ability, and hope that listeners/players can at least enjoy the experience at the time. It's another skill to develop aye- melodies. As arrangers I guess we don't think about just writing heads. We should.

It's not really a big band tune, but I can never get past the "MASH" theme. How much mileage did Mandel get out of those 7 notes!! Who can't think of the tune as you read this?

Using that theme as a good model, think 'motif' is what I'd offer.

Rob

ttf_robbo · Post by **ttf_robbo** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:47 am

Yes, I'd say you do need a strong melody, but.... I've not been able to achieve it

I can hear the tune in my head to most Glenn Miller tunes, but barely any of mine!! I tend to back my charts with my arranging ability, and hope that listeners/players can at least enjoy the experience at the time. It's another skill to develop aye- melodies. As arrangers I guess we don't think about just writing heads. We should.

It's not really a big band tune, but I can never get past the "MASH" theme. How much mileage did Mandel get out of those 7 notes!! Who can't think of the tune as you read this?

Using that theme as a good model, think 'motif' is what I'd offer.

Rob