Horn Angle vs Embouchure motion

[Tbone00]

I have been recently reading about pivot system and how embouchures work, I have found a lot of good information, but I have a question for embouchure Gurus.

Talking about a "very high placement" (IIIA) player his/her embouchure motion is always up to ascend and down to descend (the mpc goes near to the nose in high range and goes down in the low register) However, what about the horn angle while pivoting?
I know Very high placement players usually play with an upper horn angle than other like the medium high placement players (IIIB), but talking about the horn angle while pivoting, in some IIIA cases (In my own case for example) players ascend their horn angle when they are going up with their embouchure motion and descend their angle when they are going down. But I have noticed that a lot of very high placement players (maybe the majority) descend their horn angles when their embouchures motion go up and their horn angles are almost straight when they are playing in the low range and his embouchure motion is down. Therefore, I would like to know what this difference is due to if it is something personal such as the jaw manipulation or if there are some characteristics in common that can be used to identify and help players wih embouchure motion issues.

thanks.

[Doug Elliott]

In general that type of embouchure would do better to raise the horn angle slightly as they ascend. When they don't, often it is because they don't understand the whole concept and think they're doing the right thing. The pivot has been extremely misunderstood and mis-applied in the past. Lots of players do things like that which are contrary to the way their embouchures COULD function best.

There certain things that are deceptive - In that example, for that embouchure type, raising the horn angle in the low range does in fact open up the low range sound, so it seems like that's the right thing to do. And then extending that also becomes the shift for pedals.

The problem with that is that it separates the low range from the middle and high range in a way that you can't go back up without resetting. It encourages a shift instead of eliminating it.

I think I'll leave it at that. This is the stuff I address in lessons on an individual basis.

[Tbone00]

In general that type of embouchure would do better to raise the horn angle slightly as they ascend. When they don't, often it is because they don't understand the whole concept and think they're doing the right thing. The pivot has been extremely misunderstood and mis-applied in the past. Lots of players do things like that which are contrary to the way their embouchures COULD function best.

There certain things that are deceptive - In that example, for that embouchure type, raising the horn angle in the low range does in fact open up the low range sound, so it seems like that's the right thing to do. And then extending that also becomes the shift for pedals.

The problem with that is that it separates the low range from the middle and high range in a way that you can't go back up without resetting. It encourages a shift instead of eliminating it.

I think I'll leave it at that. This is the stuff I address in lessons on an individual basis.

Thanks for the input. What I find curious is that this "wrong" way of pivoting is very common even in Top Players.
In this video you can watch Mr Alessi, typical IIIA playing in that way, he descend his horn angle when his embouchure motion goes up.

In this other you can watch Aleksey Lobikov (Tchaikovsky Competition winner)
doing that way too (you can ignore his advice)

There are a lot of more examples and I don't want to say anything with this, I'm not an expert to determinate if their embouchures could work better or not just point out that I find this a very curious subject.

[harrisonreed]

"I'm not an expert to determine if [Joseph Alessi's] embouchure could work better"

No, it probably can't. Therefore.....

[Doug Elliott]

Many years ago (early 1990's) I had that discussion with Jiggs Whigham, and he was skeptical. Several years after that I ran into him again at an ITF and he told me I had been right after all.

Nearly everybody can be more efficient than they are. Lots of players, even top players, "get away"with things that are less than ideal. It doesn't always continue working forever. Sometimes they continue to improve their technique, and sometimes it falls apart.

I could use Charlie Vernon as an example although he's a different embouchure type so the same things don't apply.
As great a player as he's always been, he's playing much more correctly and efficiently now than he ever did before. That's not to say anybody else should emulate exactly what he does, because his nearly horizontal motion is pretty unique to him, but it's very correct for his face.

[Tbone00]

"I'm not an expert to determine if [Joseph Alessi's] embouchure could work better"

No, it probably can't. Therefore.....

with that extreme example I was just trying to get to my point. If for that type of embouchure this is not "the most efficient pivoting" why the vast majority do it? My guess? because it can works (Althoug there are players like me who can't do it that way)

[Tbone00]

IMO (as Doug said before) the reason is because the players get a more open sound in the lower notes in that way of pivoting, its true that it creates a shift between the lower range and the middle/high range, but I know some good and top players who are able to control that shift and make this an advantage. In my case I have a more pronounced pivot so I have to play in the other way to conect all my range. So I would say (and I may be wrong) that horn angle is like jaw manipulation (there are players with the same type of embouchure who bring their jaw forward to ascend and other who recede their jaw to ascend) both are personal and not necessarily indicative of a player's type of embouchure.

[timothy42b]

I'm a high placement myself and my motion is as described, upwards to ascend in range. As the mouthpiece tracks upwards it seems natural for the horn angle to raise a little as it kind of follows the curve of the teeth.

In the low range my mouthpiece motion is downward. But what I'm noticing is that the jaw wants to drop, and when that happens the pitch goes flat and I can't get back up. So if I'm careful to hold the jaw, and careful to use the motion downwards, then low notes still don't want to speak until the horn angle raises. So motion downwards to descend, as is correct for my chops, but in the low range the horn angle goes back up even though the motion continues downward.

It feels to me that this is more correct than the other way to get those notes which is to drop the jaw. I know a lot of people do that but my understanding is Doug says learn to play without doing that.

I should explain, this is more obvious on jHorn than on trombone, because the mouthpiece is too small. Way too small. It comes with a couple different size inserts, and the low notes play much better with a bigger one, but the middle and upper range is unplayably out of tune, so I'm using the medium mouthpiece. But it seems like a small mouthpiece exposes that low note difficulty more.

[PaulTdot]

There are lots of potential ways to get the low range to work on a consistent setting, with consistent motion - and it definitely feels better and smoother if you don't have to raise the horn for low notes, as well as usually improving intonation (the big, fat sound often comes at the expense of tone center and pitch).

It's quite interesting to see what people do:

I was quite surprised to see a master class with Urbie Green (who is of the same embouchure type), where he is asked about range and he says that "the jaw comes out in the low range, I guess, and comes in the high range, something like that?"

The best thing is to try it yourself and to feel the difference. Maybe there are some players of this embouchure type who would benefit from a lowered horn angle as they ascend, but it sounds a little dubious. I found that I could prove the difference to myself very quickly after some experimentation and I've never looked back. The difference is pretty dramatic.

Joe Alessi, while he is one of the greatest performers on the trombone of all time, can still have issues or things to improve. I've seen him reverse his embouchure motion at the top of his range, for instance, which is almost certainly not a good idea in the long run.