TromboneChat

Hello friends,
I'm looking for some advice on available leadpipes that will bridge the gap between my two setups. Both are Shires bell sections with regular old independent rotors (love them!). One has a dual bore Edwards slide; I use their #1 leadpipe. The other horn has a stock Shires 562 slide; I use Shires' #3. So big slide/small pipe, smaller slide/bigger pipe.

Lately I've been feeling like meeting in the middle would be better. So either making the dual bore setup a smidge more compact or the single bore setup a smidge more open.

Yes, I could change tuning slides and several other things, but leadpipes are cheaper and have always made more of a difference for me.

Any thoughts besides "no one needs to play a dual bore slide. George Roberts didn't..." Etc.

The 2 leadpipe always comes back as the best for me. May be worth trying that on both.

Hi Chad,

When playing on a dual-bore bass slide, both the Edwards #2 and Shires #2 leadpipes work pretty well for me. Even the Shires 2.5 long is manageable and the sound is fantastic, but not quite as efficient for me. When I go bigger than a 2.5 long....mush.

For single bore .562 slides, my go-to is the Noah Gladstone/Brad Close NY50 in seamed yellow brass. It is a terrific pipe. Feels open, yet rather efficient. It also gives me great control of all types of articulation. I think the NY50 might be a little smaller venturi than the Shires #3 (maybe Brad Close can answer that). However, venturi size does not always determine how "open" or "resistant" a leadpipe plays. There are so many other variables in leadpipes.

Gents,
Thanks for the replies so far. The #2 pipe wouldn't accomplish what I'm after on either horn. It's smaller/tighter than what I'm using on the single bore setup I'm trying to open up and is larger than the dual bore slide setup I'm trying to tighten up.

So, I'm looking for what's bigger feeling than a #3 on the single bore slide and what's smaller feeling than a #1 on the dual bore slide.

Try going shorter on the #3 (easy enough to trim a 1/4" off, try it, then trim more if you feel it worked) and longer on the #1 (if possible)

What bells are you playing on?

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:19 pm What bells are you playing on?

Dual bore: BII 1Y, Gold C tuning slide
Single bore: BI 2G (cut), Bollinger tuning slide

The single bore setup is a modified ProSelect Shires and its slide isn’t compatible with the other bell section’s hand slide receiver. The ProSelect bell itself was modified so it can be swapped onto the other setup and vice versa.

I’d start with a 2.5 or a Conn-esque leadpipe such as a Brassark 62H replica or George Roberts replica on your single bore slide. It’s probably slightly less open but I’d guess I’m any of those option would be well balanced with the rest of the horn without going “too tight”.

For the dual bore I might go for a 1.5 or 1.5S. Just a little more open but not all the way to a 2. Depending on what you’re using it for, nickel might also be a cool option instead of yellow brass. Newell Sheridan told me he likes to stock 1.5 pipes because they’re a fairly easy blow but not too tight. I’ve been told it’s similarish to Bach 50 pipe. The Brassark MV 50 replica pipes might also work well.

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:49 pm I’d start with a 2.5 or a Conn-esque leadpipe such as a Brassark 62H replica or George Roberts replica on your single bore slide. It’s probably slightly less open but I’d guess I’m any of those option would be well balanced with the rest of the horn without going “too tight”.

I play my dual bore more often and have always found the single bore slightly too tight. I don’t want anything tighter in the single bore than it already is.

For the dual bore I might go for a 1.5 or 1.5S. Just a little more open but not all the way to a 2. Depending on what you’re using it for, nickel might also be a cool option instead of yellow brass. Newell Sheridan told me he likes to stock 1.5 pipes because they’re a fairly easy blow but not too tight. I’ve been told it’s similarish to Bach 50 pipe. The Brassark MV 50 replica pipes might also work well.

I don’t want anything more open on the dual bore. I play a #1 and I’m looking to go slightly smaller, not slightly larger.

I think Matthew Walker of M & W custom horns has some good advice. For your single bore, you are seeking to reduce the resistance the slightest bit. Thus, you should take the #3 leadpipe and either make it slightly shorter or open up the venturi by 1 or 2 thousandths of an inch. The former is a more dependable way to control the modification. The latter can be a bit risky....but might make a more pronounced difference. The problem with changing the venturi is that there can be a fine line between perfection and disaster. If you open up the venturi by 2/1000ths of an inch, it might be perfect for you. However, if you go a couple more thousandths, the leadpipe might be awful.

If the #1 leadpipe is too open on the dual-bore slide, go with a #1 long pipe (as Matthew Walker already stated). Newell Sheridan has shown me "extra long" leadpipes that he special ordered from Shires. I think they are about 12.5 to 13 inches long......maybe that would be a great place to start. If you find that a #1 extra long is too tight, cut off 1/8 or 1/4 " of the leadpipe at a time until you find your ultimate pipe. You could also have a tech "draw in" the venturi on your #1 by 1 or 2 thousandths of an inch on a lathe. I have done that to a few of my leadpipes for some of my smaller horns in order to get better articulation clarity.

If you do any alterations to the venturi of a leadpipe, I recommend that you do it side-by-side with a technician. It really is a situation in which you should move the metal about 1/1000th of an inch and then play test it. If it is not enough, move the metal another 1/1000th and play test it again. It can be a tedious process.

Back when I was experimenting with such things, I noticed that the Bach short and open 50 pipe made the single bore come closest in resistance to the duo bore with a more conventional lead pipe. However I didn't like the way the horn played with the Bach open pipe overall as much as either the duo bore with a regular pipe, or the single bore with a regular pipe. For me each slide has it's own sound and place and I don't try or even want them to be the same. If they were one of them would be redundant. vive la différence. I like using the same lead pipe on both the standard and duo bore slides, as this makes it easier to transition from one to the other. For a long time I've use a Shires #2 on the Shires bass, either slide. Recently I've found that the Bach bass plays well with the MK drawing 50 pipe, and gives a resistance on the Bach that is similar to the Shires setup.

I've got an extra long Greenhoe pipe if you're interested in experimenting....$75 ?
Chris

Hi Chad -- If I understand correctly, you want the dual a bit tighter and the single more open, yes? Changing pipes might not just be a matter of venturi but length of the pipe. Edwards standard pipes are a bit longer than Shires standard pipes also a Shires #X venturi may not be the same size as a Edwards #X. Longer pipes can "feel" tighter and shorter more open.

That said, the easiest way to go might be an Edwards #1 long for your dual and a Shires #3 short for your single. I'd try taking "baby steps" from what you have before you start throwing different makes in there. You might open doors you wish you'd left closed if you make to big of an initial shift.

Ah, I think I see what you're after. I personally also find the leadpipe to be more important than the single/dual bore on bass setups, but not everyone shares that perception, obviously. Which on that note, perhaps if you reframe your options, you might find yourself on more "standard" equipment setup and not need to go custom leadpipe route.

For example, instead of trying to make the 562/562 slide more like the 562/578 slide and vice versa, perhaps trying to make the overall setup closer to the middle? I know you're somewhat limited in ability to switch things around but I think perhaps if you could do...

Dual bore: BII 1Y, Gold C tuning slide (#1 leadpipe) (want to make more "tight")
Single bore: BI 2G (cut), Bollinger tuning slide (#3 leadpipe) (want to make more "open")

to

Single bore: BII 1Y, Gold C tuning slide (#2, #1.5 etc.)
Dual bore: BI 2G (cut), Bollinger tuning slide (#2, 2.5, etc.)

You'd end up with the latter horn that is probably slightly more open than the one you have now. Similarly, you'd probably find the former setup to be more "tight" or "bright" or whatever it is that you're after.

blast wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:38 am I've got an extra long Greenhoe pipe if you're interested in experimenting....$75 ?
Chris

What vintage are you talking about? The WI made Greenhoe pipes were stock, off-the-shelf Conn-Selmer items. There were no length options offered.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:32 am

blast wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:38 am I've got an extra long Greenhoe pipe if you're interested in experimenting....$75 ?
Chris

What vintage are you talking about? The WI made Greenhoe pipes were stock, off-the-shelf Conn-Selmer items. There were no length options offered.

This pipe came with a Greenhoe Bach that was shipped from Gary to Mick Rath...I think there was some talk of reciprocal agency that failed to work out. I saw it at the factory, then it was bought by a Scottish player. He had a job playing it and came to me to get it checked out. I found a pipe that worked in it and let him do a swap.
Chris

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:14 am Dual bore: BII 1Y, Gold C tuning slide (#1 leadpipe) (want to make more "tight")
Single bore: BI 2G (cut), Bollinger tuning slide (#3 leadpipe) (want to make more "open")

to

Single bore: BII 1Y, Gold C tuning slide (#2, #1.5 etc.)
Dual bore: BI 2G (cut), Bollinger tuning slide (#2, 2.5, etc.)

Matt,
Thanks! I've played all those combinations before on the job. The dual bore with the cut bell is my travel setup and I've played it at conferences and with several different orchestras. It definitely makes the sound a little more compact. I was hoping to make the feel/blow a little more compact also. It's a similar situation with the yellow bell on the single bore. It widens the sound slightly but has a minimal impact on the feel/blow. They're all good combos I've played on the job for various things.

What I need to do is scrape up enough pennies for an M&W. That's the only single bore horn I've ever played that sits in between these two setups. Whatever the stock yellow bell setup Matthew brings is really what I'm looking for. I'm trying to slightly replicate that feeling by swapping out some cheap parts.

Harold and Matthew and Brian,
Thanks for the advice. I think I'll tinker around with a slightly longer Edwards #1 and a slightly shorter Shires #3 (hopefully someone has something like that lying around ). One of my issues is that the pandemic curtailed nearly all by bass trombone opportunities. I've played much more tenor the last 18 months. I used to be able to drive the dual bore setup with no problem, but I'm not in good enough shape on bass at the moment to make it work the way I want. But my single bore setup still feels a tad confining (though I'll use it any day of the week on Haydn/Mozart/Beethoven/etc.). I need a tweener.... As my orchestra gets more active, hopefully I'll get my dual bore mojo back. I love that combo.

Chris,
I'll think about that long pipe. Is it relatively open feeling, just longer than average?

I'll be honest, as it stands, it's not very open and I don't like the feel. Good candidate for trimming back though. I'll be interested to hear what Matt says about it. It was finished in same polished manner as the other two that came with the instrument. This was way back in time...early days of Greenhoe...2005/6 ???
Chris

ChadA wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:24 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:14 am Dual bore: BII 1Y, Gold C tuning slide (#1 leadpipe) (want to make more "tight")
Single bore: BI 2G (cut), Bollinger tuning slide (#3 leadpipe) (want to make more "open")

to

Single bore: BII 1Y, Gold C tuning slide (#2, #1.5 etc.)
Dual bore: BI 2G (cut), Bollinger tuning slide (#2, 2.5, etc.)

Matt,
Thanks! I've played all those combinations before on the job. The dual bore with the cut bell is my travel setup and I've played it at conferences and with several different orchestras. It definitely makes the sound a little more compact. I was hoping to make the feel/blow a little more compact also. It's a similar situation with the yellow bell on the single bore. It widens the sound slightly but has a minimal impact on the feel/blow. They're all good combos I've played on the job for various things.

What I need to do is scrape up enough pennies for an M&W. That's the only single bore horn I've ever played that sits in between these two setups. Whatever the stock yellow bell setup Matthew brings is really what I'm looking for. I'm trying to slightly replicate that feeling by swapping out some cheap parts.

Haha, yes indeed a new M&W might fix that problem indeed!

Perhaps you could split the difference and see if you can just get a new from them mounted to it! I'm certain there are other differences that also influence sound and Matt would be the best resource to go to... but the bells you have are somewhat on the heavy side (the "standard" bells at Shires are pretty heavy vs. elsewhere). I wonder if an M&W bell on your current setup gets you closer to where you're trying to be. Of course, those are a lot more expensive than leadpipes, as you mentioned in your original post though!

I lucked out in a big way, personally. I was able to have Long Island Brass make me a fantastic valve section on an otherwise great set of Shires components that I got at a good price. One of them was a totally unknown bell from Shires that has a beautiful Kranz on it. Being the perennial gearhead, I suspect that if I knew what type of model it was, I wouldn't like it as much.

Bach 50 pipe