TromboneChat

Intriguing stuff from Jay Friedman's site at at http://www.jayfriedman.net/articles/equipment_notes  ...

Quote The new Bach 42BOF model will feature a European designed “Open Flow” valve. This is the most responsive valve on a Bach trombone that I have ever played. It will be available as a “42CUSTOM” in the Jay Friedman configuration, with a lightweight gold brass bell, and an option for a lightweight nickel 42 or 50 hand slide. This trombone will be available in early 2018, and will be a great addition to the Bach trombone line!

I would also like to see the reintroduction of the Bach model 45. The model 45 had a 9 inch bell and some had a dual bore slide. I am not a fan of dual bore slides because the overtone series of each inner slide tube will be different and this will cause each octave to be in a slightly different slide position, and we already have enough of those variants don’t we?
The 45 would serve both tenor and bass trombones players as a doubling instrument. There are many ensemble pieces calling for one trombone. Many times it is difficult to discern whether the part is meant for a tenor or bass instrument. Then there is the occasional “tenor-bass” delineation, which both Wagner and Stravinsky have called for, and which seems to be a fitting description of the model 45. The 45 would be a perfect doubling instrument for a tenor player who doesn’t play bass trombone, and the perfect doubler for the bass trombone player who doesn’t play tenor.
The 45 would also make a perfect 2nd trombone in a modern band/orchestra low brass section, because it would correspond to the old German formula of progressively larger sized descending voices; i.e. alto, tenor, bass. This concept is the same idea as a choir of voices comprised of S,A,T, B as opposed to identical sized instruments, which would emulate the T,T,B,B color. While the latter’s advantage is more blend, the former has the advantage of both blend and color.

Meinlschmidt rotor?

And bringing the 45 back? Weird choice there. Is there any market for that at all?

Conn had (has?) the 88HK. 9" bell. Would be mated with .547/.562 slide presumably.

I haven't run into any in the wild. I'm guessing the market is not demanding this product.

Quote from: Ellrod on Jan 11, 2018, 11:47AMConn had (has?) the 88HK. 9" bell. Would be mated with .547/.562 slide presumably.

I haven't run into any in the wild. Has "bigger is better" run its course?

That 9" is from the 5B, right? Another "tweener" horn not made anymore. Not to say I don't like them, but pretty oddball.

When did they discontinue the 5B and when did they bring out the HK? Was there a period of overlap?

Jay doesn't say they're reintroducing the 45B. He says he would like them to.

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jan 11, 2018, 11:53AMJay doesn't say they're reintroducing the 45B. He says he would like them to.

You're right.

Oops - Have edited title

Here's a link to what appears to be a German site listing the 42BOF.  Interesting....

https://www.musikmarkt-plauen.de/laden_gewaartikel.php?gewaart=706923501

Is that not just a La Rosa setup on the A47? Or maybe the wrong picture.

I guess the important thing to note about this announcement is that it means the Friedman style star bell is back in production!

Quote from: mr.deacon on Jan 11, 2018, 01:13PMI guess the important thing to note about this announcement is that it means the Friedman style star bell is back in production!

Those bells are great. I had one for a while and it was the best gold bell I’ve ever played.

The instrument shown in the German link is specific to the German market, and is being sold as an "Anniversary Model". (I don't remember "which" anniversary is being celebrated). So no, that is not the horn in question.

M

Only this time the refreshed Friedman model will sport the..... (drumroll please) fresh scent  orange peel lacquer. 

Quote from: Ellrod on Jan 11, 2018, 11:47AMConn had (has?) the 88HK. 9" bell. Would be mated with .547/.562 slide presumably.

I haven't run into any in the wild. I'm guessing the market is not demanding this product.
Huh.  I love the 45B, I have two, but this is not going to be popular.

The sound fits in nicely as he said, but the horn as engineered doesn’t fit in. I wonder why this is. All other sizes have adapted to a fairly consistent response and tuning layout, but that small bass tweener size hasn’t been corrected to fit in.

Well, to the resurgence of the 45B!
Andy

I met Charlie Vernon a couple of months ago while he was in L.A. and he mentioned that he was working on a signature instrument with Bach currently as well. I cant remember all the details he mentioned but it sounded good. He had a bach made dual bore slide which he said would be part of this new instrument.
Havent heard or read anything about it anywhere else though.

The dual bore overtone series thing is not something I had heard of before. Very interesting.

I have thought about picking up a "small bass" or "larger than symphony" tenor for a while.

I wonder what this valve he is talking about is. Most responsive valve ever played?

A Charlie Vernon artist series Bach? Take my money!!

Quote from: HouBassTrombone on Jan 12, 2018, 10:00PMA Charlie Vernon artist series Bach? Take my money!!

Yeah it sounded good. Im just trying to remember what he said it would have... he definitely said it would have the dual bore slide and also a longer bell. He seemed to think a lot of bachs had bells that are too short.... ugh I cant remember. Hopefully it actually happens though!

I have some people I know at Bach that I want to ask!

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 13, 2018, 09:27PMYeah it sounded good. Im just trying to remember what he said it would have... he definitely said it would have the dual bore slide and also a longer bell. He seemed to think a lot of bachs had bells that are too short.... ugh I cant remember. Hopefully it actually happens though!
Hmmm don't all Bachs have the same bell length? Do you think he meant length of the bell sections? Cause you've got weird lengths in bell sections between different Bachs like as mentioned in Burgerbob's youtube videos.

There's more fake news on this thread than on Fox News.

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 14, 2018, 05:19AMThere's more fake news on this thread than on Fox News.

How so? You dont think it might be worth exploring and discussing when some of the most accomplished trombone players in the world put their thoughts into gear design?   

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 14, 2018, 07:00AMHow so? You dont think it might be worth exploring and discussing when some of the most accomplished trombone players in the world put their thoughts into gear design?   
You missed my attempt at humor. Calm down.

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 14, 2018, 07:07AMYou missed my attempt at humor. Calm down.

Haha! Im always calm 
Hard to discern humour over the internet. 

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 14, 2018, 07:08AMHaha! Im always calm 
Hard to discern humour over the internet. 

I was commenting on the fact that the OP posted something from Friedman's website stating he's like to see a horn come back. The someone posted about how the 45 would be obsolete, is there a market, etc??? Then someone had to point out what the OP posted was that Jay was commenting that he was just talking about the possibility. People with OCD or ADHA symptoms don't read thoroughly. They just spew.

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 14, 2018, 07:21AMI was commenting on the fact that the OP posted something from Friedman's website stating he's like to see a horn come back. The someone posted about how the 45 would be obsolete, is there a market, etc??? Then someone had to point out what the OP posted was that Jay was commenting that he was just talking about the possibility. People with OCD or ADHA symptoms don't read thoroughly. They just spew.

Sure. Sorry I misunderstood what you were reffering to!

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 14, 2018, 07:26AMSure. Sorry I misunderstood what you were reffering to!
No problem. Who doesn't respect Jay or Charlie??

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 14, 2018, 07:28AMNo problem. Who doesn't respect Jay or Charlie??

Can't argue with that! 

So... a great idea and design being assembled by a factory of recent and not so recent dubious QC? I'd want to test it vefore shouting "take my money"!

Not the ITA floor model either. Let me test a random one from the factory after they've been out for a year or so. Would be great if they start making horns like the bad old days. Fingers crossed for Bach.

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 14, 2018, 07:21AMI was commenting on the fact that the OP posted something from Friedman's website stating he's like to see a horn come back. The someone posted about how the 45 would be obsolete, is there a market, etc??? Then someone had to point out what the OP posted was that Jay was commenting that he was just talking about the possibility. People with OCD or ADHA symptoms don't read thoroughly. They just spew.If you'll read the thread carefully, you'll notice that the OP's original title for the thread was: "Bach to produce a new Friedman model and reintroduce the 45". Those first few posts (up through Gabe's first post) are in response to that. For that matter, they're mostly discussing the marketability (or lack thereof) of a reintroduced 45, which, IMHO, is still a valid subject for conversation even in light of the fact that Mr. Friedman is just engaging in a little wishful thinking.

Quote from: JohnL on Jan 14, 2018, 08:08AMIf you'll read the thread carefully, you'll notice that the OP's original title for the thread was: "Bach to produce a new Friedman model and reintroduce the 45". Those first few posts (up through Gabe's first post) are in response to that. For that matter, they're mostly discussing the marketability (or lack thereof) of a reintroduced 45, which, IMHO, is still a valid subject for conversation even in light of the fact that Mr. Friedman is just engaging in a little wishful thinking.

I read it very carefully. It was only one comment that I was referring to. Obviously any conversation about any instrument is valid-it's a trombone forum.

Ahh! A veiled reference to me.

The comment stands. I realize they don't plan on re-introducing the 45, but I do wonder about its place in the modern trombone world.

Very excited to play a new Friedman model. I am confused as to why they discontinued the previous one, which was pretty great already.

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 14, 2018, 10:17AMAhh! A veiled reference to me.

The comment stands. I realize they don't plan on re-introducing the 45, but I do wonder about its place in the modern trombone world.

Very excited to play a new Friedman model. I am confused as to why they discontinued the previous one, which was pretty great already.
You think too highly of yourself.

Bill, I respect you highly as a player and musician.

Somehow I don't feel that is reciprocated, and I don't know why. 

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 14, 2018, 10:17AMAhh! A veiled reference to me.

The comment stands. I realize they don't plan on re-introducing the 45, but I do wonder about its place in the modern trombone world.

Very excited to play a new Friedman model. I am confused as to why they discontinued the previous one, which was pretty great already.

I believe the Friedman model needs refreshing due to change from O.E. Thayer valve to Infinity.

Assuming that "The length of the bell" refers to "The length of taper of the bell", it'll be interesting to see how the new Vernon model will compare to the Shires Bollinger model.

I really liked the one that I played (for 90 seconds at NYC ITF in a noisy hotel room), and it notably has a dual-bore slide, axial valves, and a modified bell taper (though whether they're modified in the same or opposite directions won't be known until or even after the thing is released).

It'd be interesting if they wound up being similar in the end.

Quote from: John Beers Jr. on Jan 14, 2018, 05:47PMAssuming that "The length of the bell" refers to "The length of taper of the bell", it'll be interesting to see how the new Vernon model will compare to the Shires Bollinger model.

I really liked the one that I played (for 90 seconds at NYC ITF in a noisy hotel room), and it notably has a dual-bore slide, axial valves, and a modified bell taper (though whether they're modified in the same or opposite directions won't be known until or even after the thing is released).

It'd be interesting if they wound up being similar in the end.

I'm curious how you got that impression, John. In fact, the only thing on the Bollinger model that is exactly the same as a standard component otherwise available is the bell.

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jan 14, 2018, 05:53PMI'm curious how you got that impression, John. In fact, the only thing on the Bollinger model that is exactly the same as a standard component otherwise available is the bell.
https://www.seshires.com/tbbo/

Bollinger Bell: 9.5-inch, two-piece, hand-hammered Bollinger taper in medium weight yellow brass with traditionally brazed seam and soldered bead

"Bollinger Taper" makes me think that it's different from the BI or BII tapers.

Quote from: John Beers Jr. on Jan 14, 2018, 05:58PM"Bollinger Taper" makes me think that it's different from the BI or BII tapers.

It's not. It's a BII. I don't know why it's described that way.

I would love to try the Friedman Bell on a Lt 547 slide. I bet it would make a nice straight set-up

Bach 42BOF (Meinlschmidt rotor)


https://youtu.be/AnlSYfa4RKA

So... what exactly is "new" about the Meinlschmidt "OpenFlow" valve? They've been around for almost 10 years now, right?  Can't wait to see what Bach will charge for this one.

Quote from: daveyboy37 on Jan 17, 2018, 07:19PMCan't wait to see what Bach will charge for this one.

https://m.thomann.de/intl/bach_42bof_bb_f_tenor_trombone.htm?i11l=en_GB%3AUS.EUR%3AUSD&ref=msg_a_6

Available from February 1.

Quote from: pedrombon on Jan 17, 2018, 05:41PMBach 42BOF (Meinlschmidt rotor)


https://youtu.be/AnlSYfa4RKA

That's some mighty fine playing!

Andrew

I have used many different slides (manufacturers and type of metal) with my Friedman bell in both straight and f attachment configurations. Depending on the type music and which part I'm playing I use either a 1975 Bach 42LW slide, an Edwards TDBAN or a Shires .525 nickel slide. I have yet to find a yellow or gold brass slide that projects as well. In most cases I still prefer it with an attachment vs a straight configuration..

"I would love to try the Friedman Bell on a Lt 547 slide. I bet it would make a nice straight set-up"
[/quote]

Quote from: pedrombon on Jan 18, 2018, 06:28AMhttps://m.thomann.de/intl/bach_42bof_bb_f_tenor_trombone.htm?i11l=en_GB%3AUS.EUR%3AUSD&ref=msg_a_6

Available from February 1.

ooooooooooooh it's a reality.  A limited edition Bach trombone.  I may have to bite. 

Looks like they are using the La Rosa wrap and substituting a Meinlschmidt valve..

Looks like they are using the La Rosa wrap and substituting a Meinlschmidt valve..