TromboneChat

Hi everyone,

I am wondering if anyone has had a double valve independent valve section built that will plug directly into a Shires Custom Bass? I am tinkering with the idea of instrument innovations axials, rotors, or Hagman valves. Just curious who people have been using recently and costs to have the work done?

I love my Shires Axials, but they have been problematic due to over buffing on the tubing from the factory, and platting issues on one of the inner cones (the section is also pushing 15 years old so a little wear isn’t surprising, just a bit more then I would normally expect and I would like to have a backup, or relegate this section to back up) I will probably buy a new set, but just exploring some more interesting options since I can.

Thanks,

I'd expect to pay about what you would pay for a new Shires valve section, a bit more or a bit less depending on the valve and tech. Shires has the advantage of high production numbers and jigs, of course.

Can't you just get new cone cores and have them relapped?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:52 pm Can't you just get new cone cores and have them relapped?

I could, but beyond the cores, I also need to replace two of the elbows coming out of the valves as they were over buffed and blew out on flights (was told by a very reputable tech that they were over buffed when the horn was made). I also have very acidic, and oily skin/sweat so there are also two other longer pipes near my neck where I have severe pitting (you can see metal layers where the pitting is happening). I am just in need of a second set of valves as a back up. It would also allow me to send these off to get re-built. Need to get something I like in case these come back and I hate them. Figured it might be a good time to see if something more interesting could be built. If not I am thinking either a Q series bass, or a lone star. Both are basically my current set up.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:48 pm I'd expect to pay about what you would pay for a new Shires valve section, a bit more or a bit less depending on the valve and tech. Shires has the advantage of high production numbers and jigs, of course.

fair, just thinking it might be fun to get something a little more unique for once. If I could pick anything based off of looks I would have a double hagman set up with red brass tubing, a copper tuning slide, and a sterling silver bell. No idea what it would sound like, but it would be pretty.

May just get a Q series axial with gold brass bell, or a lone star, they are basically the same set up I have now except with nickel hand slide crooks.

I haven't had one made for several years so this info is a bit stale; however, labor is obviously the largest cost, followed by the valves, then linkages, then bends, then tubing... generally. The fewer of those things that you can need to have done, the cheaper the valve section.

For example, I had a dependent tenor section made from a Bach 36B valve section and made modular to Shires. I was able to procure most of the parts by trading things around here and there. So even with mostly "free" or very cheap parts, it was still in the mid $1k range. I only had a Bach 36 linkage too, so I had that swapped out. All said and done, I was a little north of $2k.

I had an Instrument Innovations valve set done by Long Island Brass that I absolutely love. His work is impeccable; and that was before he had most of the equipment he has now to custom make ferrules etc. There were some difficulties, mostly of my own choosing... for example, I wanted to have Yamaha linkages and so I had him deliver w/o the linkages and the local shop took forever to get them from Yamaha... pandemic hit, etc. then they had to bend them and it didn't fit right away. I love them, don't get me wrong, so I'm glad I have them... but if I were to do it again, I'd order the linkages from Instrument Innovations (now that they provide them, they didn't at the time!). That saves a lot of cost.

Tubing is typically not expensive, nor really are the crooks, but they have to actually fit together. So if you cobble it together from existing parts, you'll add labor cost. So the closer to "kit" you can get, the cheaper it will be relatively. One exception to that is probably the Hagmann valves which seem expensive to import, relative to domestic (assuming you are US) valves. BUT, you can order them with everything you need. Your tech can "just" assemble it.

All said and done, if you're lucky, you can get something for not very much. Depends on how much work you want to do yourself; for example, I've acquired whole horns and parted them out to defray the cost of the valve. But you also have to get a little lucky; you can't always tell condition of parts, so you still might end up replacing something expensive like a valve core. But if you want new, you might be able to come in cheaper than a stock one on a horn. Or perhaps not. There's a lot of variation in custom stuff.

I regularly make valvesets for various modular horns, and the options are quite vast. I recently started working with the New CAIDEX valves by Wilson, and while very expensive, by far the best conventional rotor I have ever seen. I do also use Meinlschmidt rotors as an alternate option, and occasionally hagmanns. Since others have referenced cost, I am definitely not your most budget friendly option, nor is it my goal. I just look to build the most well constructed, best playing valveset you've ever used, and charge accordingly.

Very nice looking valve sections for sure.

Curious. What makes the CAIDEX so good?

sf105 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:09 am Curious. What makes the CAIDEX so good?

Super light core, excellent flow through the port (low resistance for a conventional rotor), and bumper plates are individually adjustable are the the top aspects that come to mind.

Can you show a photo of the side with the adjustable bumper plates?

mbtrombone wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:48 pmI could, but beyond the cores, I also need to replace two of the elbows coming out of the valves as they were over buffed and blew out on flights (was told by a very reputable tech that they were over buffed when the horn was made).

WOW. I have never heard of that happening due to air pressure. Many people fly with brass instruments all the time, and many are also shipped that way around the world. Due to construction the seal on a thayer is not nearly as airtight as a conventional rotor, so I'm trying to imagine how much of a pressure differential would be needed to blow out brass tubing.

That said, as long as many of the parts and the valve casings and cores are in good shape, just having it refit / refurbished may be cheaper than a new section. Cores can always be replated and casings re-lapped.

Yeah, just unlucky with how the section was built. The two tubes that blew out were on two different parts, about a year apart from each other, and on two different flights. The first tech repaired with a patch since I needed the horn that next weekend for another audition. He was the one that made the observation of how thin the tubing was. The horn has only ever been in the cabin with me on flights, never under the plane/checked. Just one of those unlucky things I guess.

I’m interested in a custom single valve F att for my Shires. Does M&W do this sort of thing? LI Brass? Anybody else? Benn H? Is the Instrument Innovation valve/F art any good?

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:18 am I’m interested in a custom single valve F att for my Shires. Does M&W do this sort of thing? LI Brass? Anybody else? Benn H? Is the Instrument Innovation valve/F art any good?

I would think all of the above will do that plus several more of the good techs here on The Chat.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:18 am I’m interested in a custom single valve F att for my Shires. Does M&W do this sort of thing? LI Brass? Anybody else? Benn H? Is the Instrument Innovation valve/F art any good?

I have heard really good things about the Instrument Innovations valve. I actually just ordered one last week to have it installed by a tech near me that does all of my maintenance and work. If you give me a few weeks I can let you know how good the valve is and show you the custom open wrap and valve I'm having done on my 88H.

Yes, M&W does custom valve sections. Single, double dependent, double independent, open wrap, traditional wrap, you name it. All using the M&W custom rotor valve. Axial and Hagmann by request.

Just curious Matthew: would a traditional closed wrap cost more than open wrap? All those bends…

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:57 am Just curious Matthew: would a traditional closed wrap cost more than open wrap? All those bends…

No, the price is the same, regardless of wrap shape.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:18 am I’m interested in a custom single valve F att for my Shires. Does M&W do this sort of thing? LI Brass? Anybody else? Benn H? Is the Instrument Innovation valve/F art any good?

Yes, we certainly do.