TromboneChat

This started as a way to pick an instrument, but I think I learned something I wasn't looking for.

I have several horns I really like, and I can tell differences in sound and feel - or can I? So I recorded them. Some performance differences are obvious, but I want someone else to hear this and see what you pick out. I recorded the same snippet of This Masquerade on each of 5 horns:

- 88h w/sl2525
- 8h/36 franken horn, 525 bore
- 78h
- Olds Recording
- 48h

The same DE mouthpiece setup was used on each = DE 104n small shank, with some cup differences, listed below.

I just want to see 1) if anyone has a preference as to which sound you prefer, ignoring of course performance and recording shortcomings, and 2) if anyone can put the horns in the correct order against the recording. They were all recorded one after another in the same conditions within an overall time of 15 minutes, no editing aside from editing dead air between horns. I used a Blue Yeti about 8' away from the horn, with the bell pointed slightly downward, in a regular carpeted room in a house with an overhead ceiling fan. I know some of the levels got too high, but for what it is, I wasn't going to try to fix it.

There are 2 sound files inside the zip file attached to this post. The first one (masquerade1.mp3) is the whole clip recorded 5 times, contains 4 short phrases played on each of the 5 instruments. The second one (masquerade2.mp3) just has the first short phrase on each horn (just a shortened version of the first file) for those of you who like me have a hard time keeping one sound in your head while listening to other sounds.
The horns are different, for those who maybe aren't familiar:
- 88h w/sl2525 - The usual Elkhart 88h (1968), but with a 525 slide, lexan rim, G4 cup/shank

- 8h/36 frankenhorn, all newer parts (nothing older than 1985), 525 bore - essentially a 78/8h with a yellow Bach 36 bell, lexan rim, G4 cup/shank

- 78h - 1967 522 bore wide slide, yellow bell, stock - stainless Parker rim, E4 cup/shank

- Olds Recording - 1954 red bell, duo-octagonal slide, 495/510 bore, stock - gold rim, E4 with smaller shank

- 48h - 1959 nickel plated bell 500 bore stock, essentially a fancy 6h - lexan, C2 cup/shank

I originally assumed the 88h, 48h and Recording should be pretty distinct. I went in to this exercise with a horn I wanted to win and a horn I thought would win. Now I'll reserve what I think until we get some other opinions.

Frank
88H
Rec
78H
48H

(... but my brain is fried from playing Mahler arr. Schoenberg on the harmonium all day, so that's my excuse if I'm way off)

Listened on Sennheiser HD600 cans.

I like them in this order: 2 and 1 (almost the same), 5 (fluffy, kind of breathy), 3 and 4 (these are "brighter", but kind of have too much edge. They sound nearly identical)

They all sound almost exactly the same, owing to the articulations (you are you, and will sound like you on whatever horn you play, sort of thing), with 5 being the most unique, and 1-2 being the "darkest" and 3-4 being the "brightest". I think that has a lot to do with the room and carpets as well. I couldn't even hazard a guess as to which is which. There is one that sounds a bit more pure than the others, number 2, but it's still the same sort of sound.

Was the mic set to cardiod pattern?

Matt,

I think Harrison has it right on. They (at least on my modest computer sound system) sound similar, with none being in any way objectionable. No way I could guess which horn was which. They all sound like ... you!

I expect that if I repeated the experiment on these trombones, they would all sound pretty much like each other - like me, but different from you.

Nice work.

I ask about the cardiod and carpets because I suspect you'd get a more transparent sound for each horn if you had a bit more live room, with the mic a little closer and set to omni. You might be able to hear more differences.

Cardiod loses a lot, especially the lower freqs, as you move it father away. Omni shouldn't lose anything no matter how far away it is, and gives you a lot more room sound, which is what most of the sound of a trombone is. But you need a good room.

@ithinknot, you're almost right. How did you do that? The Recording was the last one. What clued you in that the Frankenbone was first?

I agree with Harry and Posaunus. To me the horns sounded mostly the same. The 78h sounded strong and the 48h sounded weak, which is reverse of what the horns feel like to play.

The actual order was:

- frank
- 88h
- 78h
- 48h
- Recording.

What I learned here is that I should just play what feels good to play because even very different horns sound pretty much the same. Sometimes we argue about details, but it looks to me like even big differences mean very little.

Harry, yeah, the Yeti was set to cardioid. If the recoding was a handicap, they all had the same. Interesting that you picked up that the Olds was the "doesn't belong" sort of sound. Also I agree that the 78 and 48 were on the bright side.

Interesting also that you thought the 88h has a pure sound. That made me smile a little.

Yeah, my articulations can be a little harsh. Bad habit from military bands way back.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:56 pm @ithinknot, you're almost right. How did you do that? The Recording was the last one. What clued you in that the Frankenbone was first?

I will accept any of my usual rewards (naming rights to best-looking child or pet; $10 IHOP gift card).

Having seen the list of options, I was sure about number 1 within the first few notes and before hearing any of the others. There's just something Bach/one piece bell about the articulations and color that I find easy to recognize.

1 and 2 were obviously the larger horns, and 2 being slightly wider and with more variation in attack character (88H) just confirmed 1 as the frankenbach.

I don't have any Olds experience, so that was harder... 5 was definitely the Most Different, both in sound and in your playing, so I was leaning towards that being the Recording, but then I Got Clever and started wondering whether the different mouthpiece cups were responsible and that the resemblance between 3 and 4 might have more to do with your comfort on the E/E4 combo, etc etc... shoulda stuck with my gut.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:56 pm What I learned here is that I should just play what feels good to play because even very different horns sound pretty much the same.

When the sound concept is set, and especially for solo mic work? Yes. It's like playing Guess Who here. If you know their sounds, it's not *that* hard, but it's not the crazy difference that .509 vs .562 might be assumed to be. But would you feel the same way sitting next to either sound in a section, or hearing them off mic? Maybe not.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:56 pm Sometimes we argue about details, but it looks to me like even big differences mean very little.

If someone thinks equipment determines sound, then sure. But if you're talking about equipment determining comfort and ease in making (a desired range of) sounds, then big differences matter just fine... and thus the option of playing 'what feels good to play'.

So, which do you prefer?

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:41 pm
So, which do you prefer?

Very interesting observations , thanks for sharing.

Which is my favorite? Ha. I grew up on that 88h (minus the 525 slide) so I probably understand that best. But I'm kind of having a fling with the Recording because it offers a huge range of volume and sound color. But I always thought I loved the 48h, and the 78h is the one I want to love because of the specs (wide slide, small bell, medium bore).

Desert island horn - 88h w/525 slide.

I was thinking of including the 547 slide with the 88h and the 79h. There is a playability difference between the 78 and 79.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:34 pm Harry, yeah, the Yeti was set to cardioid. If the recoding was a handicap, they all had the same. Interesting that you picked up that the Olds was the "doesn't belong" sort of sound. Also I agree that the 78 and 48 were on the bright side.

Interesting also that you thought the 88h has a pure sound. That made me smile a little.

Yeah, my articulations can be a little harsh. Bad habit from military bands way back.

The 88H was the winner for me. The tone was the best on that one. Hopefully you were smiling in happy agreement.

Cardioid though, I think got rid of most of what would be used for a basis of comparison. Would really be interested in hearing the same thing in omni or figure 8.

Tangent, but I believe that's why a lot of brass players swear by ribbon mics -- usually no option to set it to anything but figure 8.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:57 pm Which is my favorite? Ha.

What's the story with the frankenhorn, then? And how do you like it?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:57 pm Tangent, but I believe that's why a lot of brass players swear by ribbon mics -- usually no option to set it to anything but figure 8.

Well... fig 8 drops off in the bass even more than cardioid, but proximity effect is also greater, so in moderately close range applications you can balance the two out. And certainly the side rejection helps in lesser acoustics.

For close work, it's more to do with retaining relatively fast transient response and detail without introducing HF peaks (and/or the local inconsistencies even in nominally flat response SDCs), which is a combo that really only ribbons provide. LDCs, with their slower transient response and phase oddities, provide an enbiggening effect that can be charming but doesn't necessarily favor brass - the typical lifts between 6 and 10k that make vocals sparkle mostly just translate to air and spit on brass. People often think of LDCs as detailed, but it's really just a selective enhancement of certain ranges, within a generally slower/less detailed response.

The classic ribbon HF rolloff minimises the hissy noises and, to the extent that there is a bit of a mid-range presence push, it tends to be more in the 3-4k range. Coles 4038s (and to a lesser extent the Royers) have a little extra crunch right around there that tends to be very flattering to horns.

SDCs seem to find every little click and scratch. Truly annoying when I use them. I don't know -- I'm a sucker for omni LDCs. Couldn't care less about ribbons myself, but that's probably just because of my unfamiliarity with them.