TromboneChat

No matter what I do I cannot develop a high register. What’s weird is that my mid register sounds very full and feels good, low register is coming along just fine, but ZERO high reg. I’ve tried pretty much everything I’ve read or been told to do, including working with Doug E. on pivoting, and still, zilch! I’m thinking there is just something physically wrong at this point. Or it could be that I’m just doing it wrong, i haven’t ruled out operator error! I could play well at one time but that was eons ago. Maybe I have focal dystonia or am just too old to develop functional chops. Pivoting seemed to work at first, but the constant movement really irritated my lips (like an abrasion). Also, it never felt comfortable or natural. I’ve also tried moving the mouthpiece placement but that was only marginally successful and only worked in certain registers. The only way I can get up to high Bb or C is with a dangerous amount of pressure, and the notes aren’t functional. I feel like I’m just beating up my lips!

It’s a drag. I was excited to get back to it again, but I think I may have hit the end of the road. Anybody here ever have something like this happen…no high reg development? I’d be interested in hearing your story if you’ve experienced it.

Some ideas:

1. You need the right rim ID (for you) for the pivot to function properly. For example, I can't play anything above a high C on a 5G sized rim. I had no upper register on any normal mouthpiece until I tried the Alessi mouthpiece as a joke. Opened my mind, for sure. Complete contradiction to what you would think, that a 2G rim has a better high range than a 5G rim.

2. To play in the upper register, for a downstream embouchure, the tongue forms a shelf that goes towards and almost touches the front teeth. The air goes along that, and the resistance from the upper teeth redirects it into the bottom of the cup, really fast, near the base of your lower lip.

Call me!!!

Sing the highest note you can. Now put the horn on your face and blow with the same body tension. Let the chops respond.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:16 pm Call me!!!

Just sent you a PM.

You've been at this for... a couple weeks now?

It's too soon to be worrying about high Bb

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:46 pm You've been at this for... a couple weeks now?

It's too soon to be worrying about high Bb

Actually about 6 months

smcgonigal wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:40 pm Sing the highest note you can. Now put the horn on your face and blow with the same body tension. Let the chops respond.

The highest note I can sing is C4. How could that help?
(I do not have a problem with high notes on the horn, that nothing to do with my singing)

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:32 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:16 pm Call me!!!

Just sent you a PM.

You are getting help.

It sounds like you're getting expert advice now. It's difficult to get good advice on a forum thread like this because we haven't seen you play and what some people think constitutes a "pivot" is not really how brass musicians play or how Doug will teach it.

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:50 pm Pivoting seemed to work at first, but the constant movement really irritated my lips (like an abrasion).

Again, I haven't seen you play, but if your lips are getting abrasions either you're doing something wrong with your "pivot" or there's something else going on that you need to fix. Your mouthpiece shouldn't be sliding along the lips or twisting and winding up your lips.

Learning to play with a wet embouchure can often help with lip abrasions, if everything else is working correctly.

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:50 pm Maybe I have focal dystonia

I wish everyone would stop self-diagnosing dystonia online. I also wish that musician teachers, who are completely unqualified, would stop diagnosing and claiming to treat focal task-specific dystonia.

Dystonia is something that even a general medical practitioner wouldn't diagnose, you would normally get a referral to a specialist for a diagnosis. Since brass players and teachers tend to have misunderstandings about embouchure technique to start with, I can't expect neurologists to know anything about whether a brass musicians troubles are related to technique or a neurological issue.

Doug isn't a medical professional, but he is an expert on brass embouchure technique. He will be able to straighten your chops out.

Dave

No high range? Don't despair!

My story....the vast majority of my playing over the last 30+ years has been on small bore horns, with occasional playing on .547 horns for orchestral/operatic/chamber music work.

During that time, I've tried every mouthpiece under the sun, always thinking and being told that you need to match the horn with a similar sized mouthpiece for technical/horn needs, tone, blend, etc. etc.

My high range had never gone about a high F, and even then, very inconsistently depending on what mouthpiece happened to be my 'flavor of the month'.

So, I thought that due to my dental makeup, oral cavity, etc. etc. that anything above a high F just wasn't meant to be for me.

A few months ago I said 'screw it', sold a shoebox worth of mouthpieces, and decided to call Doug Elliott to get things sorted out. (...the pandemic period gave me the luxury of lots of horn time, but too much time to waste on trying out more mouthpieces just leading to more confusion.)

Cutting to the chase: now, after 3-4 months of solid work on Elliott/Reinhardt prescribed exercises, getting a rim and underpieces to match my face and horn, I now have super-high Ab's, A's, and Bb's that are 'almost there' and are getting better by the week.

And this is with a much larger mouthpiece than I've ever used, except for way back in the day when all I did at music school was play 8 hours a day on 5G's or Wick 4AL's on my large bore (and I could play a good Brahms' 2nd on the first part!)

Bottom line is, my entire range is better and stronger now after a few months of being on a DE mouthpiece that suits my particular face and working on Elliott/Reinhardt concepts. (...ha!...I might even need a bigger rim soon!....have to see Doug for more advice!)

I don't really care if I can play like Maynard Ferguson or whatever, but I do care about having a great sound up and down my horn for all the music I play.

Playing is even more fun and gratifying now that I'm understanding how things work, thanks to Doug.

I'll add my name to the list of people suggesting you give him a call, or 'wikitone', and be prepared to 'think different'.

Chances are really good you're trying to haul up a low note setting. The key there is to get enough chop in the piece for the high note and then learn to stretch it low. Sounds like crap for a while.

If you have enough chop in the piece then you can lift yourself higher by manipulating mouth resonance. Basically, play a middle note using a small "ee" syllable. Then stretch it to "ah" while maintaining your pitch. Then go slowly to "ee" while adding some air and keeping shops constant. There's an interplay there between the syllable change and the air to get familiar with. The pitch may jump. If it does, repeat and repeat.

6 months back on the horn is no time to get frantic about not having a high Bb (4 lines above the bass staff, ). It takes time.

Working the Remington Warmup "Security in the upper register" exercise got me to high Bb in about a year, but your mileage will vary.

I recall asking about how to get past G a couple years ago (after having returned to the trombone after30-plus years off).
Bruce said, "Give it time, it takes time".

I kept at it. It took time.

Two years ago I couldn't hit a high Bb. A year ago, I could hit the high Bb, but if I played a 2-octave Bb scale, I had to stop and reload near the top in order to hit the last one or two notes. Now I can play a smooth two-octave Bb scale bottom to top or top to bottom without stop, pause, or break with each note in tempo and sounding as it should.

Technique matters, but so does time. (I can now play a high C, but I can't play a C scale to the top smoothly without a flameout near the top, but I fully expect one day I will, if I stay the course)

(and Doug, I can now do that smooth mid-Bb to high Bb slur you tried get me to do during our lesson. Worked my way up from the G to G. It took time, but I worked on the stuff you showed me.)

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:28 pm

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:46 pm You've been at this for... a couple weeks now?

It's too soon to be worrying about high Bb

Actually about 6 months

Two weeks... six months...

But recall my original assessment that it takes about a year to come back after a lonnnggg layoff.

And you've been off for... what... 25 years? Other than some distant memories your embouchure is pretty much starting from nothing.

What was your comfortable high note six months after starting trombone way back when? It probably wasn't a high Bb. Six months after I started trombone i didn't even know there was a high Bb.

Are you getting closer?

Update. I met with Doug yesterday for a long time. Great lesson and a very fun conversation!! I did have the wrong idea about how to properly pivot. The three main things we worked on were free buzzing, an adjustment to mpc placement, and the pivot that is right for me. I believe my problem is not trusting that the changes are the right thing to do, so not following through for a long enough time to get comfortable with them. It is almost more of a psychological problem than physical. I’ve given up relying on any muscle or cognitive memory, it’s just not reliable or applicable after so long a time away. So my new goal is to focus on those three things until it starts working. I’ve got the time and I’m actually considering retiring from my job as executive producer for the production company I work for. Then I’ll have nothing but time! Doug went a long way to calming me down and getting me on a path that makes more sense to me.

I know a lot of people aren’t comfortable with compliments these days, but I’m gonna do it anyway, because I like recognizing the talents of others. Doug is not just a great teacher, player, and embouchure guru, he’s also a very smart guy and very enjoyable to hang out with (via Skype and I’d assume in person ). His ideas and musical interests really resonate with me, his mouthpieces are beautifully designed and manufactured, and, perhaps most important if all, he’s a really nice guy. All those things don’t often come in one package. Thanks Doug! Keep in mind, this isn’t flattery, it’s complimentary, big diff!

And thanks to all of you who have replied. I know you all know how difficult the journey can be and it really helps to know I’m not doing this alone. Sometimes I feel like throwing in the towel, but my desire to get back some of my ability is greater than my desire to run from the frustration. I tried starting up again about 18 years ago and ended up giving up too early. This time I have gotten beyond that point and am more committed to following through. I’ll keep y’all posted.

Mike

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:42 am Update. I met with Doug yesterday for a long time. Great lesson and a very fun conversation!! I did have the wrong idea about how to properly pivot. The three main things we worked on were free buzzing, an adjustment to mpc placement, and the pivot that is right for me. I believe my problem is not trusting that the changes are the right thing to do, so not following through for a long enough time to get comfortable with them. It is almost more of a psychological problem than physical. I’ve given up relying on any muscle or cognitive memory, it’s just not reliable or applicable after so long a time away. So my new goal is to focus on those three things until it starts working. I’ve got the time and I’m actually considering retiring from my job as executive producer for the production company I work for. Then I’ll have nothing but time! Doug went a long way to calming me down and getting me on a path that makes more sense to me.

I know a lot of people aren’t comfortable with compliments these days, but I’m gonna do it anyway, because I like recognizing the talents of others. Doug is not just a great teacher, player, and embouchure guru, he’s also a very smart guy and very enjoyable to hang out with (via Skype and I’d assume in person ). His ideas and musical interests really resonate with me, his mouthpieces are beautifully designed and manufactured, and, perhaps most important if all, he’s a really nice guy. All those things don’t often come in one package. Thanks Doug! Keep in mind, this isn’t flattery, it’s complimentary, big diff!

And thanks to all of you who have replied. I know you all know how difficult the journey can be and it really helps to know I’m not doing this alone. Sometimes I feel like throwing in the towel, but my desire to get back some of my ability is greater than my desire to run from the frustration. I tried starting up again about 18 years ago and ended up giving up too early. This time I have gotten beyond that point and am more committed to following through. I’ll keep y’all posted.

Mike

Great man! Enjoy the process, relax, and stick with it!

It'll be the best money you've ever spent.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:57 pm Are you getting closer?

After my marathon lesson with Doug last Friday I’m actually playing, albeit quietly, up to high Bb. I’m just doing slurred and tongued scales and arpeggios but, I’ll be damned, I’m getting there. Can’t say it feels totally comfortable or natural yet, but it’s encouraging! Doug pointed out that I was playing way too loud. I fell into the old trap of thinking you could play high easier if you played loud.

My high range continues improving! I forgot how much fun it is to play high (so to speak).

Hooray!