TromboneChat

This has probably been discussed many times, but I am new to the forum, so please forgive me. Why aren't there more trombone concertos for trombone and orchestra from the romantic and late romantic era? The trombone seems like such a natural for a concerto instrument. No problem with plenty of projection, and lots more stamina possible than horn or trumpet. So why did the great romantic and late romantic composers not write trombone concertos?

Or even just give the trombone equal star treatment with the horn? What's the deal?

just my ideas...

-No one asked for a trombone concerto. Aside from Mendelssohn (who never got around to it) no one ever asked an A-list composer to write one. No major concerto of the Romantic era, for any instrument, was written without a specific soloist involved.

-Trombone lacked the virtuoso elegance of a piano or violin. "Flight of the Bumble Bee" on trombone is 25% note and 75% tongue.

-Composers weren't very familiar with what potential it had. Wagner did, but he had no skills or desire for sonata form.

-Composers felt trombone was more advantageous as an ensemble instrument and occasional color than as a leading solo voice.

-The available trombonists of the time, the ones composers encountered during their careers, were less than worthy of an A-list concerto effort.
 

The trombone was considered quite passe in the era of Bach and Haydn and only was recently reintroduced to the orchestra (in the very early 19th Century).  It was considered a "church instrument" and as such was not considered for soloistic material.  We have a couple of pieces written for Quiesser and Belcke (the David being one) but as Rob said, none of the A-list composers were interested.  Violins, cellos, and pianos were much more flashy.  Also, composers of the period had to play piano or violin (or both).  Much easier to write for what you know.

Quote from: Paul T. McGraw on Today at 06:33 PMThis has probably been discussed many times, but I am new to the forum, so please forgive me. Why aren't there more trombone concertos for trombone and orchestra from the romantic and late romantic era? The trombone seems like such a natural for a concerto instrument. No problem with plenty of projection, and lots more stamina possible than horn or trumpet. So why did the great romantic and late romantic composers not write trombone concertos?

Or even just give the trombone equal star treatment with the horn? What's the deal?

To be fair, pretty much every instrument aside from violin and piano could say the same thing. Not many major 19th century composers wrote concerti for other instruments than those two. Several obscure/minor ones did though, including for trombone. Cello is a bit ahead of the pack but still nothing close to violin and piano. You know many major romantic or late romantic concerti for flute or oboe (or trumpet or horn, which you mention, for that matter)?

To be frank, I don't see how the trombone is more "a natural" than other instruments. I don't think it's any less natural, but certainly not more either.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Today at 07:02 PM
-No one asked for a trombone concerto. Aside from Mendelssohn (who never got around to it) no one ever asked an A-list composer to write one. No major concerto of the Romantic era, for any instrument, was written without a specific soloist involved.


I wish people stopped spreading that story about Mendelssohn being asked and then passing the ball to David. The only sources I can find for that are unsubstantiated, mostly CD liner notes starting with Lindberg. Sure it makes a nice story so we can claim that at least a major composer ALMOST wrote us a concerto but...there doesn't seem to be any evidence supporting it (correct me if I'm wrong), and it sounds like a typical made-up story, so in the end we just look desperate and silly.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Today at 07:54 PM

I wish people stopped spreading that story about Mendelssohn being asked and then passing the ball to David. The only sources I can find for that are unsubstantiated, mostly CD liner notes starting with Lindberg. Sure it makes a nice story so we can claim that at least a major composer ALMOST wrote us a concerto but...there doesn't seem to be any evidence supporting it (correct me if I'm wrong), and it sounds like a typical made-up story, so in the end we just look desperate and silly.

Lindberg is alive. If the story is doubtful, he could be asked as to how he came to it.

On a side note, it's interesting that several of our romantic concerti (including the David) were conceived in the entourage of the Gewandhaus orchestra, one of the few major orchestras that did not actually employ regular/permanent trombone players at the time

All the trombone players at the time sucked because they were busy delivering pizzas.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 29, 2017, 10:18PMAll the trombone players at the time sucked because they were busy delivering pizzas.

Gee, I thought it was because they were selling vacuum cleaners

No, that was in the '70's, there were trombone concertos being written by then.

The OP was asking about the Romantic era which coincided with the Age of Pizza.  And of course the trombone players were right on top of that, same as today.

Quote from: BGuttman on Dec 29, 2017, 10:24PMGee, I thought it was because they were selling vacuum cleaners

Was that because there were more concertos for vacuum cleaners than trombones?

Quote from: boneagain on Dec 30, 2017, 04:30AMWas that because there were more concertos for vacuum cleaners than trombones?
Malcolm Arnold: Grand, Grand Overture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPsiVxUdkvo

 I happen to be writing a concertino for bass trombone, winds and percussion.  Stay tuned and I'll let folks know when it's finished.  Pardon me for, ahem, blowing my own horn.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Dec 29, 2017, 07:54PMTo be frank, I don't see how the trombone is more "a natural" than other instruments. I don't think it's any less natural, but certainly not more either.
Well, perhaps my thinking is wrong, but I compose as a hobby, and the trombone seems a natural for a concerto. First dynamics and projection. The trombone can make itself heard even with a full symphony orchestra playing forte. Not true of any woodwinds, and a lot of care has to be taken with violin or cello to make sure they are not masked. Trumpet can make itself heard, but not for too long or the player will get tired. Second thing about trombone is a wide pitch range. Three or more octaves for a professional player. Not as wide a range as violin or cello, but more than wide enough to provide a variety of colors. Third is stamina. Time spent in the high range would need to be limited, but compared to the horn and trumpet, composers would have little fear of fatigue related errors. So that is why a bone would be a natural for a concerto instrument in my opinion. But perhaps I am biased as I love the trombone.

R. Strauss wrote two horn concertos and an oboe concerto. Saint-Saens wrote a flute concerto (French so it figures). and several composers wrote clarinet concertos. But as far as I know, no Romantic era trumpet concerto by a well-known composer

Here's a question... 

There's nothing physically stopping anyone from writing a Romantic trombone concerto (or a Romantic anything) today to fill that perceived need but no such effort will succeed. 

What happened? How did it come to be that new Romantic music is no longer allowed to take root in the concert hall? (Film music doesn't count in this discussion.)

It is as if a curtain came down about the time of the death of Prokofiev in 1953 and after that point Classical-Romantic music took on "antique" status. (You can't make new antiques, only discover old ones.)

After that point it was OK to resurrect an old Romantic work that no one had heard before but a new Romantic work that no one had heard before would not be taken seriously.

It is very hard to identify anything written after 1953 that has become standard repertoire, even by composers like Shostakovitch or Copeland who managed to get off some standard rep before 1953.

Are there exceptions? Not strong ones.  For example... Leonard Bernstein... only his stage music has a toe-hold in the concert repertoire.

What happened?

In a related note, there is a wealth of trombone features in jazz orchestras.

As for late-Romantic concertos, don't forget about Arthur Pryor's stuff he did with Sousa's band.

But, yes, neither of these examples include trombone solos with orchestras.

Robcat,

Very, very good question. I was born in March 1953, so it must be my fault! 

But seriously, I have asked myself the same thing a million times. It makes no sense. I suppose there are people who really enjoy Boulez or minimalism, but I am not one of them, so I really, really wich we had more music of the romantic aesthetic.

Quote from: Paul T. McGraw on Dec 30, 2017, 09:49AMRobcat,

Very, very good question. I was born in March 1953, so it must be my fault! 

But seriously, I have asked myself the same thing a million times. It makes no sense. I suppose there are people who really enjoy Boulez or minimalism, but I am not one of them, so I really, really wich we had more music of the romantic aesthetic.

There definitely does seem to be a trend for talented composers to go to film scoring during this period. There are definitely examples of late-Romantic and post-Romantic style in film - such as from composers Dmitri Tiomkin, Berhard Hermann, Elmer Bernstein, and Alex North, and looking a bit later, Maurice Jarre and John Williams.

A few years ago, we took my sons to Video Games Live, which involved an orchestra, choir, electronics, and what have you playing the music from video games. Very enjoyable concert.

Quote from: Ellrod on Dec 30, 2017, 12:55PMA few years ago, we took my sons to Video Games Live, which involved an orchestra, choir, electronics, and what have you playing the music from video games. Very enjoyable concert.

Many of the Video Games Live concerts are just musicians and singers lip-syncing/playing along a pre-recorded concert. Sadly. Also a bad track record at paying their musicians in a timely manner (or paying them at all).

But yes video game music can be very interesting and well written. I was lucky to play for a few years in the Montreal-based Video Games Orchestra when I was in college. Lots of fun playing that repertoire.

https://youtu.be/e-x01ddG0x4

that's why

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 30, 2017, 02:47PMhttps://youtu.be/e-x01ddG0x4

that's why

Refutation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c0lG9gnmvY

And some more..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IE6_K_dlyI


NATHANIEL SHILKRET: Trombone Concerto James Pugh

When people other than trombone players start asking for trombone concertos we might have a valid existence.

Quote from: Paul T. McGraw on Dec 30, 2017, 08:44AM Trumpet can make itself heard, but not for too long or the player will get tired.
Maybe that's true for amateur/community orchestras, but I can't begin to count the number of live performances of trumpet concerti accompanied by professional regional to top-tier symphony orchestras I've attended to over the years, and I don't ever recall the soloist struggling with endurance issues or making him- or herself heard over the orchestra.

Quote from: BGuttman on Dec 29, 2017, 10:24PMGee, I thought it was because they were selling vacuum cleaners

Yet more proof that when trombone players don't s*ck they blow. 

Quote from: robcat2075 on Dec 30, 2017, 09:11AMWhat happened? How did it come to be that new Romantic music is no longer allowed to take root in the concert hall? (Film music doesn't count in this discussion.)I think you might have answered your own question. It's movie music now. Music for the rabble.

Thanks, George Lucas, for ruining movie music for us. The theremin and Ed Wood were all we needed  .

Why not more theremin concertos?
We need a double concerto for trombone and theremin.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 31, 2017, 09:24AMWhy not more theremin concertos?
We need a double concerto for trombone and theremin.I'm holding out for alphorn and didgeridoo.

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Dec 30, 2017, 09:45AMAs for late-Romantic concertos, don't forget about Arthur Pryor's stuff he did with Sousa's band.And Frederick Neil Innes before him. When Innes was with the Gilmore band, he had a rivalry with the cornet soloist (Jules Levy); Levy would play a feature piece and then Innes would play the same piece.

Sadly, I don't think there are any recordings of Innes.

Quote from: MrPillow on Dec 30, 2017, 03:43PMWhen people other than trombone players start asking for trombone concertos we might have a valid existence.

There certainly is a problem on the demand side.


I did a count of concertos (and major solo works like "Rhapsody in Blue") programmed in the most recently available League of American Orchestras repertoire report

This included 57 orchestras from A-list to youth orchestras

There were as many concertos for birds programmed as for trombone. 

For all instruments, excluding piano and violin, there were only 93 programs



Piano     132

   
Violin     99
Viola       6
Cello      17
Bass        4
   
Flute       6
Cl.         9
Oboe        3
Bassoon     4
Sax         8
   
Horn        9
Trumpet     3
Trombone    2
Tuba        1
   
Percussion  2
tap dancer  2
   
Guitar      3
Harp        9
Harmonica   1

Organ       2
   
   
Birds*      2



*Rautavaara, Einojuhani CONCERTO FOR BIRDS AND ORCHESTRA, "CANTUS ARCTICUS", OP. 6
 
(I'm going to guess that this involves a goose-squeezing.)

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 31, 2017, 09:24AMWhy not more theremin concertos?
We need a double concerto for trombone and theremin.

I do like Ahos theremin concerto. Very cello like

The Rautavaara is cool. The birds are recordings he made in Finland. He’s Finnish.

https://youtu.be/zeoT66v4EHg
https://www.youtube.com/v/zeoT66v4EHg

Quote from: trombonemetal on Dec 31, 2017, 08:34PMThe Rautavaara is cool. The birds are recordings he made in Finland. He’s Finnish.

I got a chance to play this last year. Neat piece of music. 

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 31, 2017, 09:24AMWhy not more theremin concertos?
We need a double concerto for trombone and theremin.

I'm on it!

We have to eat less pizza and play more with our heart then....

Leif

It's because of a shortage of composers who feel moved to write for the trombone, demand and supply?

I'd like to see more things like the Malcolm Arnold "Grand, Grand Overture".  Hoffnung is dead.  Anna Russell is dead.  Peter (PDQ Bach) Schickele has virtually retired.  Who will take up the mantle now?

I've been thinking about this, and there are actually quite a few trombone concertos that fit the bill. Some, like the David, are not so great, but others are truly inspired compositions!

The Grondahl, R. Korsakov, Larsson, Nesterov, Bourgeois, Guilmant, Rota and Tomasi concertos come to mind. There are many more. Maybe you just didn't know about some of these works?

What do you suppose a trombone soloist would be typically be paid for a concerto performance?

Is there a union minimum for that?



Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jan 02, 2018, 06:56PMI've been thinking about this, and there are actually quite a few trombone concertos that fit the bill. Some, like the David, are not so great, but others are truly inspired compositions!

The Grondahl, R. Korsakov, Larsson, Nesterov, Bourgeois, Guilmant, Rota and Tomasi concertos come to mind. There are many more. Maybe you just didn't know about some of these works?

The Rimsky-Korsakov concerto is honorable but it certainly falls short what we remember him for.


There is a trombone concerto by Guilmant?

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 02, 2018, 08:34PMWhat do you suppose a trombone soloist would be typically be paid for a concerto performance?

...

We pay all our soloists the same stipend.  Orchestra members get less (half).  Students get nothing.  But we aren't the Boston Symphony (although we have had a few Boston Symphony players do solos with us).

Quote from: Pre59 on Dec 30, 2017, 03:42PMAnd some more..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IE6_K_dlyI


NATHANIEL SHILKRET: Trombone Concerto James Pugh

No takers on this? A great performance as well.

I think that Heitor VillaL lobos could have written a great concerto, and a more popular one with the public as well.

Quote from: Pre59 on Jan 03, 2018, 02:12AM
No takers on this? A great performance as well.

I often think that Heitor Villa Lobos could have written a great concerto.

I'm not a big fan of the Shilkret

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jan 02, 2018, 06:56PMI've been thinking about this, and there are actually quite a few trombone concertos that fit the bill. Some, like the David, are not so great, but others are truly inspired compositions!

The Grondahl, R. Korsakov, Larsson, Nesterov, Bourgeois, Guilmant, Rota and Tomasi concertos come to mind. There are many more. Maybe you just didn't know about some of these works?


Depends. If we're just asking about trombone concerti, sure there are many. But if the question is Romantic concertos (preferably by major composers) like the OP asked... How many of the composers you named are actually Romantic (let alone major)?

Aside from Rimsky-Korsakov, none, REALLY. Bourgeois died (very sadly) less than 4 months ago.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 02, 2018, 08:34PMThere is a trombone concerto by Guilmant?

No, at least not that we know of. His Morceau Symphonique is not a concerto, unless you want to also count the pieces by Barat, Ropartz, Bozza, Stojowski et al. as concerti (which I see no reason to do).


Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 02, 2018, 08:34PMThe Rimsky-Korsakov concerto is honorable but it certainly falls short what we remember him for.

I thought so too until I heard one recording where the mixing had the band not too soft - just under the soloist, not like background music like most recordings do, and where the band wasnt just plowing through the piece like a high school marching band but actually bringing out the subtleties of the piece. And the soloist was taking the 2nd movement at a reasonable tempo instead of making it into a death crawl (andante in 2 like it should be not Adagio or even Lento in 6...). Then I heard all these nice things and these very typical Rimnsky-Korsakov gestures and moments in the accompaniment that are indeed in the score (and mostly absent from the piano reductions).

Sure it's still a bombastic and pompous piece (of course, it IS a military band piece, not a serious concert symphonic concerto), but it deserves more appreciation than trombonists usually give it, and more care to actually get it to sound good.

If we're honest, even the David barely fits the bill really as a "Romantic concerto". David's violin concerti are significantly longer than his trombone concertino and in 3 movements, with the first in modified/concerto sonata form and the third in either rondo form or another modified sonata form. They fit the very codified structure that was still typical for concerti in his time.

The trombone piece however is really one big non-modified sonata form, and it's one single movement, not three. It's not called concertino merely because it's shorter (which it is), but more importantly because it is not, per mid-19th century standards of form, a full-scale concerto. It's missing 2 movements, and the form is simpler.

Quote from: Pre59 on Jan 03, 2018, 02:12AMNo takers on this? A great performance as well.

I think that Heitor VillaL lobos could have written a great concerto, and a more popular one with the public as well.

Forum Member MacBone played one of the Bachianas Brazilieras as a solo.  Sounded really nice.

Quote from: Pre59 on Jan 03, 2018, 02:12AMNo takers on this? A great performance as well.


I think the Shilkret could be a successful crowd-pleaser.  It seems to lack the bravura elements of a great concerto, however.

But, it's not published? That will slow it down.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Dec 31, 2017, 10:13AMThere certainly is a problem on the demand side.


I did a count of concertos (and major solo works like "Rhapsody in Blue") programmed in the most recently available League of American Orchestras repertoire report

This included 57 orchestras from A-list to youth orchestras

There were as many concertos for birds programmed as for trombone. 

For all instruments, excluding piano and violin, there were only 93 programs



Piano     132

   
Violin     99
Viola       6
Cello      17
Bass        4
   
Flute       6
Cl.         9
Oboe        3
Bassoon     4
Sax         8
   
Horn        9
Trumpet     3
Trombone    2
Tuba        1
   
Percussion  2
tap dancer  2
   
Guitar      3
Harp        9
Harmonica   1

Organ       2
   
   
Birds*      2



*Rautavaara, Einojuhani CONCERTO FOR BIRDS AND ORCHESTRA, "CANTUS ARCTICUS", OP. 6
 
(I'm going to guess that this involves a goose-squeezing.)


Only two trombone concertos? Let me guess--Grondahl and David...

Quote from: djdekok on Jan 03, 2018, 10:29AMOnly two trombone concertos? Let me guess--Grondahl and David...

David and... Michael Haydn, Concertino for Horn and Trombone.

I counted that for both horn and trombone. 

Composers I wish HAD written a trombone concerto:
Hindemith
Holst
Vaughan Williams

Composers I wish WOULD write a trombone concerto:
Scott Boerma (he's a trombonist)
John Williams (but I wonder if it would be a rehash of the Tuba Concerto)
Jennifer Higdon (Wrote one, withdrew it)


Composers I wish would make their piece(s) more accessible:
Nathaniel Shilkret
James P. Johnson (he didn't write a trombone concerto, but I have a story too long to repeat here. PM me if you want details)

Maybe the problem isn't that we don't HAVE concertos to play. We do.
Maybe the real problem is our reluctance to promote them through performance in our recitals.  

Nitzan Haroz is giving a recital on the Philadelphia Chamber Music Society series (https://www.pcmsconcerts.org/concerts/nitzan-haroz-trombone-gloria-kim-piano/)
in May, and he's programmed Arrows of Time. I realize that this is more the exception than the rule in many communities, but we have to step up and promote the best of ourselves and our instrument.