TromboneChat

.500 or .508 - what are they like?

Sound/character/feel/vibe/tendencies compared to other things. (I've never played a Williams, though from recordings I think I know what I think they sound like, if you know what I mean...) Tell me stuff!

Lightweight but they don't play like a light horn. Very similar to a Williams. He makes a lot of variations in material - every one I've tried in recent years has played great. Intonation is a little different from other horns. Not a problem, but different.

I owned one gold plated Schmelzer model 2 for, like, four or five years. I played and practiced on it for several hours a day during that time, but ultimately ended up selling it. I've also tried a couple of other Schmelzers after that, but found them to not suit me and my playing.

As Doug said, all I played were light, some very light. I must also agree on the slightly unusual intonation, especially around 4th position, which I constantly during my stint with the horn over shot and as a compensation positioned too low.

I'd assume they are great horns for players with soft attacks and for those who want a subtle and delicate slotting, with great and effortless flexibility. When I played softly and in low volume settings, I got great sounds out of it, and for small acoustic combo gigs it was perfect - but that was, and is, neither the way I play nor what I mostly do.

When playing Big Band lead, I had troubles from lacking pointedness and distinction of tone - maybe a lack of treble in my tone - and when playing in the really high register, from F and upwards, I played "through" the bell so the tone became crackling and distorted.

I attribute most of my difficulties to the lightness of the horn. The bell was so thin that every time I shoved in a cup the quick way one has to do in some Big Band tunes, I dented either the rim or the bell. Though the rim held, it looked haggard after a short time from all small indentations it got. The lightness of all parts, vibrated wrong with my playing, producing wrong overtones and not accomodating the air and sound pressure I produced.

My then trombone teacher played one, and he made it sound great, but I sold mine and bought first an older Bach 16 and then a Yamaha 697z.

Thanks both! Sounds promising.

I've been on a very light 16M for a while... the high range intonation quirks I can live with, but there's something about the subtly uneven response that's always waiting to sneak up and kick me. As much as it really is the sound in my head and it's great when it works...

I'm a total amateur - I don't need something secure enough to pay the bills, but I'd love to try some other Thicc 'n' Complicated-sounding horns that dial the PITA factor back just 5 or 10%.

16m pull the lead pipe and put a 3b crook on it

Schmelzer are very made, Manfred takes great pride in what he does

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:38 am 16m pull the lead pipe and put a 3b crook on it

First part is done - Kanstul H8 in there, big improvement. Especially with that pipe, I'm pretty sure it's a decent example. Bb in 3rd doesn't feel totally neutral, but it's very usable, solid Eb, E, F above, F# ok, no real G - if you can summon one, it won't drag you off course, but there's no real slot for it, etc. Definitely better than a lot of the complaints you see. It's a late 70s Corp., stamped 16, still the original neckpipe I guess?

Not sure it needs less resistance re crook, though. I can imagine it might smooth out the feel, but if you put a 36 slide on for fun, all of the pre-existing tuning problems (variously flat 8-10th partials) get hugely exaggerated, which makes me wonder if the 16M slide is already a bit far open for this bell configuration, and it might behave better with an 8 or 12 slide. Or not!

ithinknot wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:13 am ...

I'm a total amateur - I don't need something secure enough to pay the bills, but I'd love to try some other Thicc 'n' Complicated-sounding horns that dial the PITA factor back just 5 or 10%.

There's Inderbinen. Very small company making very nice horns. Chat member Fidbone had one for a while and he liked the sound but had problems with the weight of the instrument.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:02 pm There's Inderbinen. Very small company making very nice horns.

Might be a bit 'BAC goes to the bank' for my tastes... or my finances! But they're certainly up to some interesting stuff.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:02 pm

ithinknot wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:13 am ...

I'm a total amateur - I don't need something secure enough to pay the bills, but I'd love to try some other Thicc 'n' Complicated-sounding horns that dial the PITA factor back just 5 or 10%.

There's Inderbinen. Very small company making very nice horns. Chat member Fidbone had one for a while and he liked the sound but had problems with the weight of the instrument.

..
I had one too and got rid of it for the same reason. Heavy and poor ergonomics. Me and Chris got ours around the same time. The great Glenn Ferris plays one with two valves! I have no idea how he can hold the thing. But he manages and sounds tremendous to boot.
..

Oops

My Inderbinen inspired bones:

One more

Andre1966tr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:29 am My Inderbinen inspired bones:

So those are not Inderbinens? Did you build them and how are they influenced by Inderbinen? I'm curious

No, I have two linke Hände
A brass tech in Germany did it for me, I just told him what to do.
The influence of Inderbinen is the balancer, those Yamaha slides and a dangerous look

What parts did you start with?

A Yamaha 683 (yellow brass!) with 13,34 cm and 12,7/13,34 dual bore slides
And a great 203 mm bell and tuning slide of unknown origin...

Off topic with Schmelzer but I owned an Inderbinen for a little over a year. The trombones are mostly Yamaha parts. The mouthpiece receiver slide barrel, tuning slide counterweight, and Bell flare are custom fabrication. Bells are hand hammered and heat treated until they “sing”. Bell wire also looks identical to those found on Yamaha bells. Glorious sound, but really heavy and would get kind of lost on recordings. Also played with a section of King 3B players and got completely buried. A great solo instrument with more character than most other modern brands. Very expensive. Sold the horn to help with the down payment on my house

Those inspired horns look spot on at first glance! Super cool (and probably a third of the price)

Back to Schmelzer, have tried a couple. There is a Silver belled Model 2? in a pawn shop in Asheville, NC right now. Played nice, the look of the horn wowed me more than the sound. Also really liked the large bore w a Hagmann I tried but low register didn’t resonate for me like the high range.

The 683 bell was heat treated, too. I have a few 3B to compare. The sound of my Indie-binens is a tad more darker, denser, warmer, centered, smoother and stable. The sound does not break out and it is not that easy too sound like Gary Valente, Ray Anderson or Joe Bowie. But just like you said: it is a nice solo horn (and 2./3. chair).
Somewere between a 3B, 3B+, 78H depending on the slide choice. The 3Bs a little lighter and harsher, the 78H a bit duller ore more muffled, don´t know the correct English word...
A word to the Schmelzers. I know Manfred for 35 years living 30 miles away from his shop. Here in Gemany there is nobody of reputation playing his instruments. They are more popular with Dixieland amateur trombonists (he is one of them) and maybe some collectors. I am wondering why some guys in the US love them that much (the grass of the neighbour is always greener?). The Williams look? The ornaments? Maybe you think they are made in Germany? Are they? I don´t know... and I will not say the aren´t.
The great trombones for Jazz from Germay are made by Kühnl and Hoyer (the Bart van Lier models). They are very popular in Europe and very very good. But unfortunately I will be a Kingsman to the end of my life (and don´t know why...)

I bought one of the very first Model 1's from Manfred at an ITF. Not because of any of those reasons, but because it played better than any other horns I tried. I was in the Airmen of Note at that time, and I had a Williams already.

There are only a few horns I like enough to use regularly, and the Schmelzer 1 is one of them, although I play my Williams 6 more often. I wish I liked the K&H BvL models more. I love my Slokar Solo and alto, but the various BvL sizes don't really do it for me, I've tried them all.

Funny, I love the Slokar Solo, too

Andre1966tr wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:57 am Maybe you think they are made in Germany? Are they? I don´t know... and I will not say the aren´t.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... zer#p66967

Does anyone know about the prices of those? Didn't find information about that on the website. There's a great looking used Model 2 offered over here and I'm thinking whether it could serve as a back-up horn for me. Want to replace my 3B for quite some time...

EriKon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:58 am Does anyone know about the prices of those? Didn't find information about that on the website.

I can understand the urge to replace a 3B...never liked 'em.

Nowadays with the current euro exchange rate I believe a Schmelzer costs about the same as a pro model Rath.
I tried a .508 Schmelzer at a brass convention in NYC back circa 1991 and immediately fell into trombone dreamland. Then I saw the price and instantly went back into my dark damp cave. As a young father finances were tight back then.

Ironically, some reseller had a Williams 6 out and I tried it and thought it was stuffy and the tone seemed dead. Might as well have been a Bundy. Guess I'm an outlier.