Fatigue on euphonium

[Elow]

I’ve been practicing euphonium a lot recently, and just after my warmup i start to feel tired and so i normally take like a 10 minute break and listen to some euphonium and then start practicing. Like 15 minutes in to my real practice session i have to take another break and this will go on for like an hour until i feel i’m not getting any better. It’s very frustrating because i’m getting a lot done in my short 15 minutes but it’s only 15 minutes and i feel i could get so much more done. Any advice?

[BGuttman]

Are you pushing too hard too soon? What do you use for a warmup?

[harrisonreed]

I thought of a couple of things you could try. Maybe they will work for you:

1. The euph is not like a trombone where you can just move your handslide to fix tuning -- the valves need to be carefully tuned. If your euph has the "whammy" bar attached to the main tuning slide, make sure you are using it. Intonation problems cause you to not slot properly, and your chops will try to compensate whether you want them to or not (it gets worse the better your ear is). This makes you get tired very quickly.

2. Is your euph mouthpiece really different from your bass mouthpiece? I'm not much of a Euph player, but I know the tessitura is not all that high. At the very least, you could try using a euph mp with a similar rim ID to your bass bone piece -- that might help your face relax. I usually use a bass sized rim and cup on euph, and it works well.

3. Is the leadpipe on your euph a different taper from your euph mp? I know that a lot of euph's use something called a European shank taper. Using the wrong mp shank can cause intonation problems, and that will make you tired. The better your ear is, the more tired you'll get.

4. You may be trying to play euph with an oral cavity that is too open. I've noticed my endurance goes when I'm trying to get an artificially dark sound that way.

5. You may be trying to play euph without "tuning" your oral cavity. Similarly to whistling, each register -- each note even -- has an ideal oral cavity shape to get that note to slot perfectly. If you use the same shape for every register, you're essentially fighting the slot on possibly every note you play.

Of course, as always, my advice isn't with the digital ink it's printed with, and a real live teacher is best to diagnose what is going on. These are just ideas you can try out!

Good luck.

[Burgerbob]

I also get tired MUCH more quickly on euphonium. No real help here, I don't play it often enough to really solve the issue, but every week when I get it out, I get way less time on it than any of my other horns just due to fatigue.

[harrisonreed]

One more thought. The trombone is front heavy and predisposed towards a downstream embouchure. The euphonium sits on your lap and might be shorter or taller** than your torso (changing where the mouthpiece naturally guess on your face). Maybe your embouchure is changed up due to ergonomics?

Edit-fixed a ridiculous typo

[bassclef]

Maybe your embouchure is changed up due to ergonomics?

This is what I was going to say. When I first starting doubling on euphonium, this just about destroyed me during the first couple weeks until I realized it was happening.

Because of the difference in the way you hold a trombone vs. a euphonium to your face, there could be differences in the angle at which you make contact with the mouthpiece as well as different amounts of pressure and in different places.

Also - not sure what mouthpiece you're using, especially in comparison to what you use on trombone, but if by chance you switched up to something with a comically deep cup and a giant throat, that could be wearing you out really fast even if the rim size is something you're used to.

[timothy42b]

Maybe your embouchure is changed up due to ergonomics?

Yes. Most of us make slight angle changes (Reinhardt motion) while playing different registers, and on trombone it's easy to leave the head still and move the horn. Euph is the opposite, it is fixed in your lap and you move your head.

PS another forum member just bought a toy euph, the jHorn Nuvo, and sounds pretty good on it, so I ordered one too. It should be here Friday.

[Kdanielsen]

Good advice so far. I especially agree with the tuning/lipping thing.

You’ve got to blow into a euph, not through it. Trombone is a very transparent blow, but euph is stuffy and won’t reward same things as a trombone will.

Lots of mp (the dynamic, not mouthpiece) can help develop this. Make the tone glow at mp and use that as your baseline.

[Wilktone]

Because of the difference in the way you hold a trombone vs. a euphonium to your face, there could be differences in the angle at which you make contact with the mouthpiece as well as different amounts of pressure and in different places.

Of course, we would need to watch you play to know for certain, but the above was my first guess, particularly if you don't feel that way when practicing trombone. Video record yourself while practicing the same thing on trombone and look very closely at how the relationship of your lips and mouthpiece change against the teeth and gums underneath. Look for how the horn angle changes according to the register being played too. See about duplicating that on euphonium by adjusting your body and instrument as you hold it. It will be a different approach to that, due to the nature of how the euphonium rests in your lap.

The trombone is front heavy and predisposed towards a downstream embouchure.

Well, not really. Air stream direction is determined by the ratio of upper to lower lip inside the mouthpiece, not horn angle/jaw position. You can have a receded jaw position and lowered horn angle and be upstream.



A protruded jaw position with a higher horn angle can be downstream.



I know it *seems* like the jaw position and horn angle should have a more pronounced effect on the brass musician's air stream direction, but if you look at how embouchures function using a transparent mouthpiece you're not going to see that correlation. It's the ratio of upper to lower lip.

Back to euphonium endurance, it's possible that the height of the instrument means that you're not getting your same ratio of upper to lower lip inside the mouthpiece while playing euphonium. Make sure that it's the same. If the rim size is significantly different, try thinking of the smaller mouthpiece placement fitting inside the bigger placement as a concentric circle with the same ratio of upper to lower lip inside. You might need a pillow or euphonium stand to get the instrument raised up enough to do this comfortably.

Dave

[2bobone]

When making the change from my long-time Conn 20-I baritone horn [Bell front / front valves] to a Besson euphonium [Upright bell / upright valves with remote "F" valve] I experienced the same conundrum. I discovered that the natural tendency to lean the Conn to the left, put pressure on the left side of my embouchure and the natural tendency of the Besson to lean to the right, put pressure on the right side of my embouchure. Just realizing those tendencies made the necessary adjustments obvious and with immediate results. Also,a Besson-Style euphonium begs to be "embraced" by your left arm in order to reach the valve which accentuates the tendency to put pressure on the right side of the embouchure. The Conn, to a degree, creates a similar problem. An oval side-facing euphonium would cause the same problem as the Conn. You may discover that your endurance problem was unknowingly self-inflicted ! Worked for me ! Good luck !

[Doug Elliott]

unknowingly self-inflicted

I like that description!
Hi Bob!

[Elow]

Seems like ergonomics was a big factor, ive changed how i sit in the chairs, and changed the chair i sit in at home. I was literally just sitting on my bed, probably with bad posture, and that didn’t help. The chairs at school that are made for band are really helpful, i have much longer endurance if i sit how much directors want. I normally don’t really care how i sit, i just make it comfortable for me when playing trombone. With euphonium i’m having to put conscious effort into sitting up straight and at the angle that best suited me. I’m still getting tired after like 45 mins, but i that’s a lot better.

[hyperbolica]

I bought a baritone with a bent leadpipe, and it's nearly impossible to play because to get the correct angle on the mouthpiece, the rest of the horn pushes against my body, and I have to angle my head up. So that one's headed to the shop... Just to say that ergonomics can make a huge impact.

[BaritoneJack]

Seems like ergonomics was a big factor, ive changed how i sit in the chairs, and changed the chair i sit in at home. I was literally just sitting on my bed, probably with bad posture, and that didn’t help. The chairs at school that are made for band are really helpful, i have much longer endurance if i sit how much directors want. I normally don’t really care how i sit, i just make it comfortable for me when playing trombone. With euphonium i’m having to put conscious effort into sitting up straight and at the angle that best suited me. I’m still getting tired after like 45 mins, but i that’s a lot better.

@Elow - you don't say whether you play tenor or bass trombone, but if you look at the size of, say, the last couple of feet of tubing on your instruments, you'll see a heck of a difference in the diameters - and, bear in mind, that the cross-sectional area of a tube is proportional to the square of the radius. For example; say the tube diameter at a certain point is 2", then the csa is 3.143 sq. ins. If you increase the diameter by 25% to 2.5", then the csa goes up to 4.9 sq. ins. - an increase of 56%!

All this means that a euph takes a heck of a lot more air to fill it, and if you're slumped on your bed with your body well curled up, that pretty much cripples the effectiveness of your diaphragm. That's bad enough on a 'bone, but a killer on an instrument the size of a euph.

Past experience; when I was 19, I got poisoned with phosgene gas, which did permanent damage to my lungs, and it's gradually worsened over the years. About three winters back, I had a nasty lung infection, which left me with a chronic cough and severe breathing problems - and I couldn't play my baritone for longer than 5 - 10 minutes before I had to stop. I didn't think I'd ever be able to play it again, and I was gutted. While the docs were trying to sort out a fix for my lungs, a friend suggested I try his tenor horn (I believe it's called an alto horn in the US?) - as he said though it would take more pressure to play it, it didn't need anywhere near the volume of air that a baritone takes. I tried it, and found I could play for a full session!!

After about 5 months, the docs found an inhaler which worked for me, and I was able to revert to baritone horn - but that experience was quite an eye opener for me on the way that moving up a step in instrument size makes a very big difference to how much air you need to fill it.

Here's a thought; how about you try playing the euph standing up, with your music stand set high enough that you have to keep your head up, and see if that helps?

HTH, and best regards,
Jack

[MrHCinDE]

Good to see that you‘ve already got some improvement with ergonomics. I had a similar issue with an oval Tenorhorn which I‘d been holding very badly. It was fixed by looking at myself from a few angles in a mirror.

What sort of routine are you practicing on euphonium and is it different to trombone?

I generally find I need a longer warm up with more long, low notes on euphonium than trombone. I think it’s more to do with getting my breathing and air flow going than warming up the extra material of a euphonium but an extra 5-10 mins of playing long tones and/or slow melodies with long phrases within the bass clef staff makes a difference to me.

On trombone, I would usually do more free buzzing and spend less time on long notes.

Also, there’s plenty of euphonium technique you can practice in a comfortable range and at moderate dynamics which you can slot in as a bit of a break between the more tiring stuff.

[timothy42b]

PS another forum member just bought a toy euph, the jHorn Nuvo, and sounds pretty good on it, so I ordered one too. It should be here Friday.

I just got mine. It weighs about a pound. I don't sound as good as Philip but it's not bad.

It doesn't take as much air as a euph, and it won't take as much air as a euph. Intonation out of the staff is pretty spotty with the mouthpiece provided though.