A great video

[PosauneCat]

Post removed because I was warned that it would “ devolve into incredible nonsense.”

Admin, feel free to remove this. I was not able to delete it.

[hyperbolica]

These discussions always devolve into incredible nonsense, and that doesn't appeal to me at all. Before that starts I do want to add that the air doesn't make the sound, the buzz makes the sound. To make a buzz with your lips that far apart, you'd have to be playing really low and/or really loud. Unless the air stream is much higher pressure and speed than humans can generate, the lips have to vibrate against one another, they can't vibrate against the air stream. Very low pitches allow the lips to move a lot, but not in the tenor range, where I assume his audience is focused. The bigger the aperture is when you start, the more you're going to need a hard attack to start the buzz.

You can't argue with his results, he's obviously a great player, but he may be exaggerating the size of the aperture.

[Burgerbob]

Post removed because I was warned that it would “ devolve into incredible nonsense.”

well, that's disappointing. Just post it!

[PosauneCat]

Post removed because I was warned that it would “ devolve into incredible nonsense.”

well, that's disappointing. Just post it!

I haven’t been around this forum as long as most of you have, so I want to avoid internet bickering. My experience so far has been that it’s safer to read than to write.

It was nothing y’all don’t already know. I found it interesting but not enough to cause a ruckus.

[Burgerbob]

well, that's disappointing. Just post it!

I haven’t been around this forum as long as most of you have, so I want to avoid internet bickering. My experience so far has been that it’s safer to read than to write.

It was nothing y’all don’t already know. I found it interesting but not enough to cause a ruckus.

Well, you did remove it based on the post of 1 entire person... go ahead and post it!

[SwissTbone]

Its a pity if people don't dare to say what they think on this forum because some people on here just can't articulate their opinion in a civilized manner. And also because some people can't accept other people's opinions.

I mean... we can discuss everything if we accept no one will ever be 100% right or wrong. There are shades of grey in life and it's what makes life enjoyable.

Discussing these different shades of Grey with respect would make the internet a better place. Unfortunately I think it's not the direction this forum seems to take and it makes me sad, because it could be a great place to hang out and discuss our passion.

[hyperbolica]

Here's the video. It's worth watching.

It's a good video, he's obviously a great player. I take this as one data point out of many. I'm not sure that being a great player and understanding what is physically happening are necessarily the same thing.

He's talking about some stuff that's pretty vague - support the air stream with the embouchure. It sounds good, but what does that mean. It seems to work as a metaphor for him, but I can't visualize what it means. What he's doing looks like a tuba embouchure. What I'm used to is somewhere between the "before" and "after" that he demonstrated. You have to have an opening between the lips, but for tenor trombone, not big enough for your pinky or even a pencil. Plus, it takes a lot of conditioning to get your lips to the point where they buzz well, and it might be good to differentiate between experienced players and beginners.

Plus, he's talking about efficiency. I don't know if that's a good measure or not. Surely efficiency is a good thing, but you can't be efficient at the cost of a good sound. I'd be more comfortable with it if he made that distinction.

The real problem is that the real problem is never just a single factor to the exclusion of everything else. It's several factors each on a continuum. Some factors are degrees of magnitude stronger than others, and some get ignored. That's why it's hard to discuss this stuff, because everybody focuses on something different, and efficiency is important to one guy while another assumes sound or volume or endurance or ability to bend pitches or play false tones is the most important factor.

I think these discussions are valuable, but not the way they happen here. When I do participate in these, it's usually just to say what I think and then leave. It's usually the same handful of people wind up way out in the weeds and way over their heads.

Anyone have a stop watch?

[PosauneCat]

Its a pity if people don't dare to say what they think on this forum because some people on here just can't articulate their opinion in a civilized manner. And also because some people can't accept other people's opinions.

No one was being rude or uncivilized. In fact it was in a post by someone I enjoy quite a bit on the forum. I’m just not up for argument and debate today. It’s been a tough week.

[SwissTbone]

Its a pity if people don't dare to say what they think on this forum because some people on here just can't articulate their opinion in a civilized manner. And also because some people can't accept other people's opinions.

No one was being rude or uncivilized. In fact it was in a post by someone I enjoy quite a bit on the forum. I’m just not up for argument and debate today. It’s been a tough week.

Yes. I understand that. It was just a general observation.

[harrisonreed]

The video is great. He puts things in a way that I have never been able to, but I am 100% in agreement with him!

The embouchure is dictated by the airstream and supports it/is supported by it. Yes! I would say, the resistance from the horn completes your "buzz", your buzz isn't what's happening before the air hits the horn. His way of verbalizing is much better than mine. He is talking about a two way equilibrium between the air on one side of the embouchure, and the air on the other side of it, with as little interference from that embouchure as possible.

as brass players we focus too much about the corners. Yes!! The embouchure is not a 2D line that stretches tight across your teeth. We butt heads here over embouchure "strength", and I argue that the muscles in your face are weak, will always be weak, and the stronger you make them through "training" the tighter and weaker your embouchure will get.

My embouchure change was basically going from this, to this and he shows the difference between the tight, stretched embouchure, and the malleable "pucker" embouchure with a visible aperture. Yes!!! The embouchure is 3D. It needs vertical malleability and motion. I feel like the aperture he is showing is a bit wide, and probably isn't like that when he is actually playing, but who knows. That kind of embouchure is not going to get tired -- it will be supported on both sides by the air stream, and it's not under constant tension from "strength" in the corners.

He doesn't talk about angling the airstream with the tongue or jaw, but that's ok. He makes a specific point, and makes it well! We had a discussion about Type I vs Type II players on the old forum, and he makes the point I was trying to make! Type I is his "before", with all the resistance in the face. Type II is his after, where all the resistance would be from the horn. This guy must be a great teacher, because he demonstrates and verbalizes tough concepts Barney-style, with ease.

[baileyman]

Yeah, great vid. I believe he's taken the same path I have, though he uses different words. (It seems everyone uses different words or different meanings for the same words even if they're doing the same thing.) I think he's basically saying the chops are just along for the ride as long as the aperture is formed, which is how I would say it. Relatedly, I saw a recent Wayne Bergeron vid where he said something like, "The chops are strong enough to cut off the air at any time. Sometimes up high you have to consciously open them up". It would be fun to see his MRI, as I wonder what he's doing with his tongue, or maybe he has already talked about tongue elsewhere?

[Wilktone]

I've watched some of Dion Tucker's YouTube channel before. He is a very fine musician and has played with some big names. It's worth listening to what he has to say, but I'm reminded of another thread currently active here right now talking about separating the wheat from the chaff. There's some good ideas and inspiration in his video, but there are also some things that I don't think are actually too helpful.

My major quibble is that the pursed lips/wide open hole formation he demonstrates to explain how he's currently playing doesn't look at all like what his lips and mouth corners look like when he's actually playing the horn.

Do players get too tight in the corners? Sure, but I wouldn't recommend someone try to adopt the embouchure formation he demonstrates (pursed lips) while you are actually playing. But like a lot of things, it depends on what you have been doing and where you need to go. If you are too far in one direction then intentionally going too far in another direction can potentially get you to where you need to be. Unless you actually start taking it too far in that direction, which can lead to its own set of problems. Some of you may remember my topic from a few months ago where Doug was helping me get the position of my mouth corners *less* puckered and away from what Tucker is demonstrating.

Dave

[Doug Elliott]

Yes, EVERY correction depends on what you're already doing.

I'd say about half of what he's saying is about half right.

Among other things, the whole idea of "aperture" is a myth. It's a continuous opening AND closing, causing puffs of air at the speed of the vibration.
The only "aperture" I've ever seen (through a clear mouthpiece) with that shape and size was around a low F or in the trigger range.

[robcat2075]

I watched the video.

It has the appearance of information... he's looking into the camera and telling us stuff... and yet after it was done, if i were going to try to take up his plan there isn't much to act on except for the part about putting the pinkie in my mouth as an aperture gauge.

I tried that, it sounded god awful. I didn't feel like I was working less.

Of course I only tried it for a minute, but if it really is a game-changing everything-you-know-is-wrong thing... there ought to be at least some glimmer of better t, right?

If I were his student, how long would I have to try to make that work?

[PosauneCat]

It seems there is one way to play the trombone correctly. BUT, there are as many ways to describe how that’s done as there are people to do it. Clearly, everyone has to walk the walk and find his/her own way.

[PosauneCat]

At a party I recently talked to probably the best trombonist in Minneapolis. I may study with him this Fall. I told him about a lot of the confusion I’ve encountered trying to come back after a long time away from the horn and he said, “first, get off that f*#king trombone group!” We laughed about it but he got serious and said, honestly, there are perhaps a handful of helpful suggestions to be found there, but you have to put up with lots of unhelpful stuff too. I get what he’s saying and agree with some of it, but there are definitely some positives about it. I enjoy many of the people who post here and I think there’s some to be said for sharing with others who have like interests. But, I’d like to avoid the continual back and forth about what’s right and what’s wrong. As i said above, some of us have to find our own path. The bickering and dueling opinion stuff gets old.

I’m glad that I found the forum. Some good stuff has come from it. I found my current horn (Yamaha UGII) because a member saw one and sent me a link! That’s very cool. I’ve been turned on to some very interesting music, like Jacob Garchik’s work. I’m glad I met Doug Elliott here. I’m working on things he has shown me that are new ideas to me, and I got the best mouthpiece I’ve ever played on from him!! I also enjoy when people share their love of music in general. But, I hate the posts that, as Hyperbolica said, “devolve into incredible nonsense.” That’s the only reason I pulled the original post.

[harrisonreed]

You keep apologizing and saying negative things about the forum but this thread has been great. Who cares about what "the pros" think about this forum? They all left over a decade ago, and it was not even this forum. You want their advice, you gotta pay. And they will just tell you to sit up straight, and buzz more.

Pros left the forum because it does indeed get ugly, but also because everyone is on equal footing here. It's too easy to be called out or say something you regret.

[robcat2075]

he said, “first, get off that f*#king trombone group!”

I'm sure he was just referring to that *old* trombone forum we used to use, not this shiny new one.

[PosauneCat]

You keep apologizing and saying negative things about the forum but this thread has been great.

I actually said several things about what I enjoy on the forum. I even mentioned how I’ve benefitted and have been turned on to people and music I wasn’t familiar with before and have enjoyed. I think you missed that part. I wasn’t being negative about the forum as a whole.

Granted, I don’t get anything out of the same old arguments that get trotted out every time someone simply shares something they found interesting and/or helpful. Even if I thought something was utterly stupid, but someone else said they were helped by it, at worst I’d say, “doesn’t work for me, but I’m glad it helped you!”

I may not have anything of value to offer in these discussions of playing mechanics, but I have everything to gain from exploring. That’s all I’m trying to do.

[PosauneCat]

he said, “first, get off that f*#king trombone group!”

I'm sure he was just referring to that *old* trombone forum we used to use, not this shiny new one.

Right

[CaptEquinox]

This is sort of off-topic, but there’s nothing wrong with this message board that the old trombone forum can’t fix, once it gets moved to the new co-location facility.

[robcat2075]

Who is Mr. Chop Shop? I didn't catch a name.

Does he actually teach students in some capacity?

[Posaunus]

Who is Mr. Chop Shop? I didn't catch a name.

He clearly says that his name is Deion Tucker.

[robcat2075]

Who is Mr. Chop Shop? I didn't catch a name.

He clearly says that his name is Deion Tucker.

Made you look.

His bio says this regarding teaching...

http://www.diontucker.com/about

As an educator, Dion has taught in over 20 New York City public schools through the Jazz at Lincoln Center’s Jazz For Young People program and was a faculty member at Jazz House Kids, a music education program in New Jersey fronted by Christian McBride. He also served as a clinician at the Snipes Academy of Arts and Design for hundreds of elementary school students, focusing on musical styles such as New Orleans jazz and Bebop, as well as jazz legends Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker and Duke Ellington.

So... it doesn't sound like he has actual trombone students... or does it?

[Elow]

My school has local trombonists come to teach my section, am i not an actual trombone player?

[slideman]

My trombone sound in the bottom two octaves is best (big and focused) on a small bore tenor when I play a 12C mouthpiece with an open aperture. The mouthpiece has a low placement where the inside of the mouthpiece rim, top and bottom, are at the edge of each vermilion. No shifting occurs and natural slurs are easy. My aperture is more like a horizontal ellipse than a circle.

[robcat2075]

My school has local trombonists come to teach my section, am i not an actual trombone player?

A player?

Are you really a student of those trombonists?

Do they come back the next week and every week and to monitor your individual progress and prescribe new actions based what they observe?

That is the sort of standard teacher-student arrangement I am wondering about.

I suspect very few of the trombone teachers here would say that workshopping a trombone section is the way that real trombone teaching happens.

My question is not whether Dion Tucker talks to players, it is whether he has students.

Does Mr. Tucker have trombone students that he has 1:1 relationships with, where his ideas about embouchure and whatever are put to into practice and need to show results?

[WilliamLang]

e-mail him and ask.

[Wilktone]

Does Mr. Tucker have trombone students that he has 1:1 relationships with, where his ideas about embouchure and whatever are put to into practice and need to show results?

I understand your point, but as long as the ideas are sound it shouldn't matter. That said, I suspect that Mr. Tucker has workshopped his ideas primarily with his own playing.

Since this topic started I've gone back and watched (or rewatched) a few other videos on his channel. In spite of what I think is some misinformation and perhaps not great advice for most players, I really enjoy his videos. He's a great player, I like his style and production, and I find them inspiring. I just wish that the information he provides was based more on fact and less on how he thinks he plays. If you don't take his suggestions literally you might find his videos helpful.

[robcat2075]

e-mail him and ask.

Done. He has responded, in part...

Thanks for reaching out. Yes, I absolutely do offer private lessons. I
teach people of all levels. The lessons are tailored towards each
individuals needs. I’ll do my best to help you achieve whatever goals you
may have...

[baileyman]

... (It seems everyone uses different words or different meanings for the same words even if they're doing the same thing.) ...

Here I want to quote myself as we have had a few absolute-knowledge posts since.

[Wilktone]

... (It seems everyone uses different words or different meanings for the same words even if they're doing the same thing.) ...

Here I want to quote myself as we have had a few absolute-knowledge posts since.

I don't want to dog-pile on Mr. Tucker's video. Again, I find his presentation to be inspiring and enjoyable to watch. But I many of the points that he's discussing factually are really just descriptions of his personal playing sensations. There's nothing wrong with teaching via analogy and how it feels to you, but if you're not there in person to help adjust when someone gets it too far or otherwise wrong, it can just as easily make things worse.

Which is why I feel it's best to be as objective as possible and clear in our definitions.

But as far as using different words/meanings to say the same thing goes...

At about 2:00 into the video Tucker states, "Now my embouchure went from looking like this [shows his lips in a closed position], to this [purses his lips forward and opens a hole in his mouth]."

This is misleading in a couple of ways. First, he doesn't qualify what the functioning aperture is actually doing:

Among other things, the whole idea of "aperture" is a myth. It's a continuous opening AND closing, causing puffs of air at the speed of the vibration.

The above quote from Doug is objectively true. It's possible that players can get a good result from imagining their lip position in the open position that Tucker is demonstrating, but that's not going to be what's actually happening. If I recall correctly, in another one of his videos he makes a passing reference to the opening and closing of the embouchure aperture, but in the video we're discussing he presents the aperture as if it's a hole that is held open by the lips.

Secondly, compare what his mouth corners look like when he demonstrates how he currently thinks about lip position with what they look like when he's actually playing the horn. When he plays, his lip formation outside the mouthpiece while he's playing the horn looks much closer to the demonstration with his lips in a closed position. In fact, I find his first demonstration of what he "used to do" to look closer to how I prefer to teach.

But as I mentioned above, how you describe it can depend on what the student is already doing and where they need to go. Sometimes an extreme description is helpful, sometimes a more subtle one works better.

The only "aperture" I've ever seen (through a clear mouthpiece) with that shape and size was around a low F or in the trigger range.

I don't have any photos of the low F handy, but here's a low Bb (above the low F). Keep in mind the aperture you can see if just where I happened to catch it during the cycle of opening and closing.



At about 2:21 Mr. Tucker states, "...the embouchure should not form the air stream, the air stream should form the embouchure."

Again, this may be an analogy that people can find useful, but it's pretty vague and doesn't make sense to me. The engine shouldn't form the fuel, the fuel forms the engine? If I were to reword the point I think he's trying to make I would say that the air is what sets the lips to vibrating.

"The primary function of the embouchure is to support the air stream."

I have to disagree with this statement. The purpose of the embouchure is to vibrate and create the standing wave inside the instrument. The air being blown against the lips sets the lips to vibrating. The aperture is blown open and then due, in part, to the lips being held firm the lips close again and the cycle repeats. This results in a pressure wave traveling through the instrument, which gets reflected back to the lips. When the cycle matches the standing pressure wave inside the instrument we get the focused pitch we want. The embouchure and air work together, in conjunction.

His discussion about the mouth corners and aperture later in the video are OK, I guess. I agree that if our lips are too tight that we can hinder the flow of the air past the lips, but there are also problems if your lips are too loose. Talking about how the embouchure muscles function in conjunction with each other is fine, but there is empirical evidence that suggests the bulk of the effort among professional brass players is just under the mouth corners and around the chin.



My criticisms aside, if what he's saying resonates with you and gets you moving in the right direction, great! My advice is to caution you to understand that analogy and playing sensations don't always equate to what's actually happening, nor are they universally effective.

Dave

[Doug Elliott]

When I was a small child and heard the term "colored people," that's exactly what I imagined and wondered why I never saw any.

[slideman]

This is misleading in a couple of ways. First, he doesn't qualify what the functioning aperture is actually doing:

Among other things, the whole idea of "aperture" is a myth. It's a continuous opening AND closing, causing puffs of air at the speed of the vibration.

The above quote from Doug is objectively true.

The notion that an aperture must close during the course of playing is incorrect--at least on small bore tenors below .

[Doug Elliott]

"Must" or not, the high speed films done by Lloyd Leno in the 1970's showed that it does close, on all the subjects he filmed.

30,000 frames per second. Using film back then.

[slideman]

They must have forgotten to call me for that recording. Although, back in the 70's I was using the typical high mouthpiece placement that allowed me play high notes, but produced (for me) an uninspiring sound. I can take a selfie to show where the mouthpiece presses to my lips. Considering the mouthpiece inner width, there's no way upper and lower vermilion can reach together.

[Wilktone]

The notion that an aperture must close during the course of playing is incorrect--at least on small bore tenors below .

Here’s the link to Leno’s film again. Maybe it *feels* to you like the aperture isn’t closing, but if it isn’t, there would be no sound.

[robcat2075]

I wonder if anyone can "freebuzz" with an open aperture. That would show that the lips needn't close.

But it's probably impossible.

[CaptEquinox]

Common sense idea? If you form your chops (lips together) and there is no blow, there’s consequently no aperture. There’s only a potential aperture at that point. Once the blow starts, the shape of aperture will be determined by the supporting muscles.

[Doug Elliott]

Common sense idea? If you form your chops (lips together) and there is no blow, there’s consequently no aperture. There’s only a potential aperture at that point. Once the blow starts, the shape of aperture will be determined by the supporting muscles.

Yes, and also determined by the inherent texture and shape of your particular lips - everybody's lips are different.

[brumpone]

I wonder if anyone can "freebuzz" with an open aperture. That would show that the lips needn't close.

But it's probably impossible.

It seems like that would be whistling

[slideman]

Maybe it *feels* to you like the aperture isn’t closing, but if it isn’t, there would be no sound.

The sound is generated from the corners buzzing. The center where air passes does not close.

[harrisonreed]

200w.gif

None of that is what is making the sound you hear from the trombone. Not the buzzing, not the aperture, and not the corners. Except maybe in 5th grade band class. Nor is the OP video claiming that the aperture stays open the entire time he's playing. He was just trying to get people to visualize that the embouchure needs to be less spread horizontally, and more open vertically.

Here is someone who is talking about the exact same thing as the OP video, in a different way. A less elegant way, I would argue, but the person in this video has significantly more "creds" than the other guy. Being that he is the professor at the Royal Stockholm Music Academy, and has like 25+ years of professional orchestral career experience, and is one of the best trombone performers alive today, maybe we can cut the ChopShop dude some slack:

[robcat2075]

Here is someone who is talking about the exact same thing...

Is he even doing what he claims to be doing?

When he plays his low notes the part of his mouth we can see is in a frown shape with the corners flopped down and then he goes into a tight grimace face for the high notes.

There is no way he is doing the same thing for high and low .

[harrisonreed]

Here is someone who is talking about the exact same thing...

Is he even doing what he claims to be doing?

When he plays his low notes the part of his mouth we can see is in a frown shape with the corners flopped down and then he goes into a tight grimace face for the high notes.

There is no way he is doing the same thing for high and low .

Exactly. He is taking about the same concept, demonstrating something that isn't at all what he is talking about, and had way more "creds".

Your issue with ChopShop was that he has no students or creds, but his video is far superior. And people still don't know what he's trying to explain.

[Doug Elliott]

It may be useful to point out that there is a distinct difference between the resonance characteristics and frequencies of a tube that is open on both ends vs a tube that is closed on one end. If the lips truly did not close, you would have a tube open on both ends. But that's not how brass instruments work.

Even if you THINK your lips aren't closing, the Bernoulli effect will make them close and open again as you blow air through. Without closing, there will be no vibration which IS the source of sound.

And where did this idea "The sound is generated from the corners buzzing" come from? WTF?

Maybe it *feels* to you like the aperture isn’t closing, but if it isn’t, there would be no sound.

The sound is generated from the corners buzzing. The center where air passes does not close.

[harrisonreed]

Maybe it *feels* to you like the aperture isn’t closing, but if it isn’t, there would be no sound.

The sound is generated from the corners buzzing. The center where air passes does not close.

^
From here. I think this is a novel concept born at this very instant.

Completely contrary to physics.

[robcat2075]

Exactly. He is taking about the same concept, demonstrating something that isn't at all what he is talking about, and had way more "creds".

Your issue with ChopShop was that he has no students or creds, but his video is far superior. And people still don't know what he's trying to explain.

It's really not clear what you are proposing anymore.

[harrisonreed]

Exactly. He is taking about the same concept, demonstrating something that isn't at all what he is talking about, and had way more "creds".

Your issue with ChopShop was that he has no students or creds, but his video is far superior. And people still don't know what he's trying to explain.

It's really not clear what you are proposing anymore.

I'm just illustrating that you don't like the concept being discussed no matter who is teaching it, because you are taking them too literally. That, and the fact that it has nothing to do with teaching credentials. ChopShop isn't advocating that you actually play with your aperture spaced the size of your pinky. Calling the guys credentials into question was uncalled for and I was trying to defend him. He illustrates how to go about opening up the embouchure in a much more organized and eloquent way than someone else with all the teaching credentials trying to teach the exact same thing.

If it's not for you, it's not for you and that is fair.

[slideman]

It may be useful to point out that there is a distinct difference between the resonance characteristics and frequencies of a tube that is open on both ends vs a tube that is closed on one end. If the lips truly did not close, you would have a tube open on both ends. But that's not how brass instruments work.

Even if you THINK your lips aren't closing, the Bernoulli effect will make them close and open again as you blow air through. Without closing, there will be no vibration which IS the source of sound.

And where did this idea "The sound is generated from the corners buzzing" come from? WTF?

LOL! I doubt any laws of physics were broken blowing on a long brass pipe. Since this method worked so well for me, I assumed it was common with other players.