TromboneChat

Hi,
I hope this is the right forum for the discussion of performing with a covid face masks. They are required this year in our jazz band. I have a black one with a flap that lifts up, but the hole for the mouthpieces seems too small and it shifts around and sometimes I get a mouthfull of cotton ....(there is no brand name on the mask)
I would greatly appreciate any ideas of what other trombonists are using.
If I missed this discussion please send me to the proper place.

Thank you HELP!!!

I didn't bother with the mask. I put a cover on the bell. Most of the particles you are forcefully ejecting are coming from the bell.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:51 pm I didn't bother with the mask. I put a cover on the bell. Most of the particles you are forcefully ejecting are coming from the bell.

Not when you're not playing, though.

They're silly, but I have to use a mask with an opening for a couple of the schools I teach at. I don't think there's an especially good solution, I really don't like the one I have.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:51 pm I didn't bother with the mask. I put a cover on the bell. Most of the particles you are forcefully ejecting are coming from the bell.

That protects others from you, but not you from others.

I’ve played two different versions and found that this style is a little easier to use. A little trick I like to do is loosen up the fit a bit so you can make room for your mouthpiece. It’s the least frustrating of the two I’ve played.

https://www.wwbw.com/Conn-Selmer-Adjust ... yKEALw_wcB

Needs a Y-front.

We all know that there is no way a mask or bell cover does much more than block some of the particles coming out of you and the instrument when you're playing. I don't think it is "good enough" or bullet proof.

Wearing a mask while going around doing your daily business is great. Wearing it while pumping out a ton of air on purpose through something we know leaks air out of the slide, the valve, through the bell cover, and out the sides of your mask -- while spreading that air ten meters or more seems like an exercise in futility. It's either worth playing the music or it's not, but kidding ourselves about the risk isn't going to help anyone.

Vaccination has got to be the only way to protect yourself and others. Along with not playing live music until everyone is vaccinated, or everyone can agree that the reward is with more than the risk.

You make some very good and realistic points. I am vaccinated and I know most of the people around me are also.
But the Junior College were we play insists on masks and bell covers. I sat out all of last year without playing in public and looking forward to Wind Ensemble and Jazz band again. I am also 71 and have heart failure.
What to do...what to do? Many mixed feelings and confusion. I am going to try and play though.

Yeah, at the end of the day I guess you will have to do what you can to follow the rules. Maybe there is a less intrusive mask that you can find, but all I have been using is bell covers at events that require COVID mitigation. I haven't found any mask that doesn't significantly interfere with playing or that does what it advertises.

There's a big difference between different makes of masks and bell covers. I haven't had to use one for a while, so I have to look for it, but I found one from Hickeys that seemed like the way the opening was made allowed for the mouthpiece to move a bit more, but still seemed to seal fairly well. If I don't get back to you in a couple of days, PM me to remind me. If I can find it, I can tell you which brand it is.

No matter what, any mask for brass playing means that you need to set the mouthpiece in place a lot earlier - no slapping it up to your face right before an entrance.

Jim Scott

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:32 pm Needs a Y-front.

That design is patented by Jockey!

I haven’t looked for a while, but the research being done at Colorado State showed almost no particles are emitted from brass instruments. They are far fewer than singing or talking. If this is a concern for you, you might want to check their research. Of course, if you are required to mask, you don’t have much choice.

SimmonsTrombone wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:32 am I haven’t looked for a while, but the research being done at Colorado State showed almost no particles are emitted from brass instruments. They are far fewer than singing or talking. If this is a concern for you, you might want to check their research. Of course, if you are required to mask, you don’t have much choice.

Lots of data in other studies, trumpets and bass trombone are sited as big emitters. Was just on the CSU site and still no final report. Last webinar was in may. Anyone listen to that? I missed it.

Our school is mandating covers for all iinstruments that can use them. Masking, spacing,, no warmup in the room, no unnecessary talking. Masks for brass players is a little undefined "use of masks while playing is encouraged but not required. Mask when not playing."

vetsurginc wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:31 am ...

Our school is mandating covers for all iinstruments that can use them. Masking, spacing,, no warmup in the room, no unnecessary talking. Masks for brass players is a little undefined "use of masks while playing is encouraged but not required. Mask when not playing."

The study I remember reading showed the most emanations of droplets from (of all things) flutes.

Reeds have a problem because air comes from all the holes and not the bell.

Brass have a nice directed air stream that comes from one place. But the longer the tube, the more chance for droplets to coalesce on the tubing sides rather than be emitted from the bell.

I just bought a mask from my local music store. I have a gig Monday on my bass and will post how it goes. I also bought a bell cover for my tenor, but I play it in big bands exclusively. With constant mute changes it would get in the way so it is going back to the store.

I use a Crown Royal 1.75L bag as a tenor trombone bell cover (and subtle mute). Very effective (for both purposes). But, as noted, this prohibits use of other mutes (straight, cup, bucket, etc.).

Mask with a "fly" - no thanks! I'll wait until the risks of close indoor playing with the potentially unvaccinated is reduced.

I have one issued to me that is made by ConnSelmer that has an opening similar to men's briefs. It isn't ideal and you have to bring your horn up early from rests to weave it through the opening but once you are playing I haven't had any issues. It is a poly/nylon blend of some kind so it does get heavy after a while if you sweat on stage. Unfortunately it is a rule you have to follow if you rehearse or perform in academic facilities right now.

At this point, with the Delta COVID variant running rampant, I'm only playing with others whom I know for sure to be vaccinated. I do not wear a mask when playing in such situations.

On the other hand ...

I'm very sad to have just this morning lost a cousin to COVID (after several days in a Florida ICU; respiratory distress / ventilator progressed to terminal kidney failure). He had not been vaccinated because he "didn't believe." (Surprise!) He had traveled from Indiana to Florida to visit another relative, was infected with COVID which progressed very quickly, and died in a Florida hospital. His wife, who already has cancer, now also has COVID. I can't tell you how upset this makes me.

We CAN protect ourselves from this evil virus by getting vaccinated (Pfizer/BioNTech is now fully FDA approved and licensed), wearing masks and keeping our distance in public, and using common sense.

Note that even without masks, social distancing (2 meters between people) can reduce the level of contagion. Masks plus distancing is actually best, though.

Sorry to hear about your cousin. I have a "non-believer" in my family as well and worry about his safety.

Yes, though if the delta is "1000 times more infectious", the equivalent physical distancing would be about 60ft.

Doesn't work that way. The distance is to avoid contact with droplets. For Delta you just need less droplets to get infected.

(I hope you were just trying to make a joke ...)

I believe droplets are out of the equation now. One piece of advice is if you can smell someone's cigarette you could catch their covid.

baileyman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:37 pm I believe droplets are out of the equation now. One piece of advice is if you can smell someone's cigarette you could catch their covid.

Yes, the concern is aerosolization, so the water droplets are smaller. But I don't think the cigarette smell is appropriate advice. There are many chemicals involved in cigarette smoke and chemical filtration is way beyond what's necessary to minimize COVID transmission.

I've heard similar said about smelling flatulence through a mask as somehow indicating masks won't minimize transmission and that observation is definitely incorrect.

--Andy in OKC

I recall seeing a device for movie cameras to shield the lens from splashing water. It essentially has one nozzle to blow a hurricane of air from one side across a plane a few inches in front of the lens and has another nozzle on the other side to suck it all up. A water drop let can never make it through to the lens.

Something like that but with UV light instead of air. You'd have a mask with a completely open port in front of the mouth and it has a plane of super UV light across the opening. Air and your brass instrument mouthpiece can go through it unimpeded but germs crossing the plane get zapped. Like "the brig" in Star Trek.

Of course you'd still have a cover over your bell for the germs that go through the instrument.

But there'd be no opening and closing of flaps like the masks described above require.

I'd be a little concerned about safety. The UV light source has to be shielded from people sitting on the periphery of the user.

Also, this might make the mask kinda pricey. Not to mention, how to power the UV source (battery pack? plug?).

Why are people always so skeptical about ideas that merely require five or six quantum leaps in technology to be practical? It's almost as if they don't want a virus-zapper device attached to the front of their head.

Lenses could restrict the beam just as lenses restrict a projector beam. Or UV lasers could be used!

You'd have to black the portion of your mouthpiece that extends through the barrier to keep that from cast stray rays.

If battery power is not adequate, this could be a plug-in device. People already have to plug in their guitars and keyboards and amps so it's not like there is no power in the rehearsal room.

Alternatively, the room could have one central source of UV light and that is distributed to each mask-wearer by fiber optic cables.

This device could also be used for restaurant dining. No more cloth mask to lift up every time you put the fork in your mouth!

I envision also an "infra-red" setting. You could slice up a potato, toss a piece in... and it would be a french fry when it landed on your tongue!

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:51 am Alternatively, ...

Alternatively ... you could get vaccinated, encourage everyone else you encounter to get vaccinated, wear a proper mask when around others (especially indoors), and not put yourself in close contact with those who are not vaccinated!

How much is your life - and the lives of those around you - worth?

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:27 pm

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:51 am Alternatively, ...

Alternatively ... you could get vaccinated, encourage everyone else you encounter to get vaccinated, wear a proper mask when around others (especially indoors), and not put yourself in close contact with those who are not vaccinated!

The topic of the thread is how one could have a mask that one can play a brass instrument with.

The ProTec ones are pretty good and as far as I know, machine washable. Mine is quite comfortable although I'm totally isolating so I can be around my 80+ y/o grandparents at the moment. I'm in a very fortunate position to be able to do that and still maintain employment.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:12 pm The topic of the thread is how one could have a mask that one can play a brass instrument with.

Rob,

You're right. I was off topic. But since none of the available brass-playing masks are convenient or comfortable - I'll pass, and restrict myself to playing (maskless) with folks I know to be vaccinated and conducting themselves safely. My sympathies to those who have no choice.

I am amazed that nobody has posted this research project yet. The research was sponsored jointly by the National Federation of State High School Associations and the College Band Directors National Association. It is the latest research that was completed in July 2021. The research itself was done at The University of Colorado and The University of Maryland. Here are a couple of links:

https://www.nfhs.org/articles/unprecede ... -19-study/#

https://www.nfhs.org/media/4294910/thir ... report.pdf

The research was rather conclusive that the COMBINATION of masks and bells covers were very effective in mitigating the spread of aerosol particles from instruments. MUCH TO MY SURPRISE, they concluded that bell covers on reed instruments like clarinets and saxophone DID make a difference in the containment of aerosol particles. Fascinating stuff!

-----------------------------
I have started gigging again and bought a few pieces of PPE to try and compare. For me the following combination works, feels and plays the best:

Mask = Pro Tec adult-size mask with the vertical slit. This masks stays "in place" very well because of the adjustable rigid nose piece. I feel that it fits very nice and snug across the top. Thus, my glasses do not fog up. The slit closes easily with two small magnets that are stitched into the fabric.

Bell Cover = Bell Barrier brand. This is the PPE that is endorsed by Joe Alessi. The sound is very clear with little distortion to intonation and resistance (just like Alessi says!). They are sold at Washington Music Center and must be ordered by exact size.....7 inch, 7.5 inch, 8 inch, 8.5 inch, etc.....

We were just having a conversation in our community orchestra about this. The study that CBDNA funded was pretty lacking. It didn't really evaluate a holistic approach to the problem and didn't even touch the bottom line issue, which is whether or not any of these devices really do anything to reduce the risk that a sick person will infect others with covid while playing their instrument.

The best ways to reduce the risk of anyone getting sick while playing in a musical group are, in order of efficacy:
- Get vaccinated
- Play in a well ventilated area
- Stay as far apart as possible
- Instrument permitting, wear a well-fitting N95 or KN95 respirator (the only face masks shown to have a significant effect of protecting the wearer)

Nowhere on that list is "take a mask and cut a hole in it for your instrument." If it's too risky to play trombone, then don't play trombone. For the vast majority of people, it is no longer too risky to play trombone or be around someone who is, as long as you're vaccinated.

This easy, cheap do-it-yourself air filter looks great.

Perfect for rehearsal spaces, teaching, etc.

Large and really recycles a lot of air.

https://www.wgbh.org/news/local-news/20 ... es-it-easy

I'm not discounting the idea of air filtration devices. I will note that it's very important to understand the resultant airflows created by the device.

My wife is a public school teacher. Her classroom last year did not have good ventilation options. So, I asked one of our state's leading infectious disease experts about buying one or more HEPA filtration systems for her classroom. That's when I got a lecture (a good one) on aerosolization, airflow, and airborne infectious diseases.

Bottom line: Moving air may expose people who are in the flow of aerosolized particles either being pulled into the system or by air stirred from the exhaust.

--Andy in OKC
(I am a state legislator for my day job - so I do have opportunities to ask all kinds of questions! But less time to practice and perform. )

I want to share a story as a case study in vaccination and why it's important:

I play in a big band here in town and we have been back to rehearsing weekly since about June after everyone in the band was vaccinated. One of our members was symptomatic the night of our rehearsal two weeks ago and tested positive a couple days later.

First, he had very minor symptoms, and considering the Delta variant's prevalence right now, a good bet it was the delta variant.

Second, we were rehearsing in a studio, 20 of us with only very slight distancing distancing, no masks or bell covers, most of the windows closed, maybe the HVAC was running, not sure.

Once the positive result came back the county health department asked us all to get tested and to isolate due to the spread of Delta over the last week before then.

Not a SINGLE person tested positive. The infection was completely contained and we had pretty much all of the deck stacked against us for it to be an outbreak. I think this speaks highly to the vaccine's efficacy and why it's important to get vaccinated so we can continue music making like this.