Attacks/articulation

[JamesSp]

Hello all.

I was a member of the old forum ages ago but didn't really embrace the move. Nice to return.

Im looking for random ideas on an issue I have never been able to overcome in my playing.

For years now, I have always had a "delay" in the attack of the first note of a musical phrase, or starting a piece, that sort of context. I am incredibly lucky to have had many teachers, and when I was younger, I would bring this up frequently for advice and most commonly regardless of which teacher I asked, the answer was more "air attacks" or better internal time before the exhale.
While this issue never went away, I got much more competitive at trombone and secured spots at extremely well regarded and sought after schools which saw me learning from a couple of names in the trombone community in particular who are very well known performers with endless lists of successful students. By this point most of my practice had become trying to "hide" this issue, and I was pretty successful, I never had anyone mention it in my performances, Lessons etc.... and it was only discussed when I brought it up.
I reasonably quickly found myself doing the freelance life and I am extremely fortunate to have played in quite a lot of enjoyable and professional musical contexts in ensembles many musicians would probably recognise the names of.
I took auditions every so often and found this issue was amplified with the stress those situations cause, so my results varied a lot. I had a couple where I didn't progress but one I was offered the position with a couple of others which saw me get offers for trials etc....

These days the majority of my practice sessions continue to be hiding this issue. Despite having many teachers, I was never able to find a solution and at this point I feel I have tried quite a lot. As I mentioned earlier, the most standard advice across the board would tend to be to practice more "air attacks" or get better "internal time" before the exhale. These days, I can air attack cleaner and more precisely in any register on any note from double pedal Bb to high F than if use the tongue, it has helped in no way incorporate the tongue into my attacks. The internal time one before exhale... maybe is the issue? But after so many years of practice and feeling the time in different ways, I know "what" is supposed to happen "when" quite clearly. My issue is it just doesn't.

Last year I started taking some lessons with a performer/pedagogue who has a reputation for many aspects of teaching but is well known for helping those with sort of embouchure issues etc. I explained everything to him and he was extremely helpful. Through discussion, trial and error, I was amazed to find it appeared my suspicions were correct. There was no issue with my air or time, I practiced a new position for my tongue which was extremely weird and I would never have thought to try it on my own, but It became very clear very quickly it had "fixed" my issue. The only problem from there was that it only solved the issue from the middle to the upper register, the same process and actions did not work for the lower register.

While nobody in my years of study mentioned the tongue as a possible cause, this helped solidify my suspicion that has been the issue. In terms of feel... it feels like I simply can't move my tongue fast enough at the first note. At least, not as fast as subsequent notes, the air always beats my tongue in action on the first one. Less tension in my tongue doesn't work. More tension doesn't work. Im quite sure now it's placement but I dont know where else to try placing it.

Despite getting so close, since then I simply have not been able to sort out what to do to not have this issue in the low register. I practice every day, and this problem over the years has frustrated me, but only recently have I started having thoughts about stopping playing because of it.

While it feels like I have tried every possible option, I am aware I would never have thought to try what this person last year suggested I try which ended up solving the issue for half my register. So im hoping maybe the same will happen here, someone will suggest something I hadn't considered or never heard of that seems quickly like the way forward.

[robcat2075]

I'll "note" that the late-first-note problem has been discussed either on this forum or the old on in conjunction with the phrase "valsalva maneuver", if you want something to "search" on, however... the advice attached to that line of thinking sounds very much like what you describe as being not helpful to you.

Unrelated, maybe... I've noticed my late-first-note problem goes away when I have a practice mute in.

That has made me think it is either psychological (I'm not worried about what the note sounds like anymore) or... it is some sort of air pressure phenomenon (per the standard advice).

[Burgerbob]

I hate to say the obvious thing, but a lesson with Doug Elliot sounds like the choice.

I had similar issues for the last couple years, and basically no longer do.

[mbarbier]

I second Doug Elliot lesson. I've not done so, but know a lot of people he's helped.

I had that issue pretty bad in college and intermittently a bit after, I was given two solutions and I've found both worked well at different times. I feel like the first one got me into the place where the second one could sort of finish the job. I found in both that a focus on rhythm above all else made them the most effective.

First was to basically spend a few months breath attacking everything in your practice sessions and just getting a really strong feeling of flow going. Basically I started to find that when I was zoned in on that I needed articulation more for clarity than any sort of note start. Once I got to that point I started adding articulation back in but added a pickup to everything. It really solidified putting all of my attacks on like a rhythmic conveyor belt. Once I got my playing on a really strong bodily rhythmic feel, that issue went away. Anytime there's anxiety about first attack stuff now, just kinda visualizing that process tends to smooth it out.

[LeTromboniste]

It might very well not be the same issue or the same mechanics involved, but years ago I had something similar. My "first" attacks were not consistently wrong, but were also not consistently right either and I felt very unstable with them. At first I thought it had to do with the timing of the change of direction of the airflow and the tonguing and certainly it was part of it but even after working with my teacher on fixing whatever issues I had with my breathing, there was still something not working with initial articulations, and progress stopped on that front even though my breathing was still overall improving.

What helped me a lot was then practicing "prepared tongue articulations" where you start blowing air for a tiny amount of time without letting the lips vibrate and then cut off the airflow with the tongue only while maintaining the support, so that you get a clean initial articulation afterwards by merely releasing the tongue. Now to be clear, I didn't actually use that articulation in real musical contexts (although I've been told by a few high level orchestra players that they secretly sometimes use it in certain specific contexts, but won't say it publicly because it's generally frowned upon...), but practicing it was a useful tool to find the right sensation of what the tongue does at the moment where it gets out of the way, by isolating that from everything that normally happens quickly right before it, from the timing of the exhale and from the motion of the tongue towards the articulation point. That process also led me to change where my tongue was striking as it made me discover that I could get much cleaner articulations at a slightly different position, which I hadn't noticed when trying to improve my initial tonguing without isolating that release motion from the rest.

Now I think that tool should probably only be used once the player has good control over the breathing and where that or the timing are clearly not the problem, as it could potentially worsen those problems otherwise. And I would not advise it to younger students without the supervision of good teacher who can assess whether it's actually pinpointing the problem and not worsening other issues.

[Doug Elliott]

I don't really know whether I'm the person who helped the OP before, but I definitely have ideas that can take care of that problem. It can have a variety of causes so it's important to see the whole picture and fix everything together.

[JamesSp]

I don't really know whether I'm the person who helped the OP before, but I definitely have ideas that can take care of that problem. It can have a variety of causes so it's important to see the whole picture and fix everything together.

No it wasn't you, I'll shoot you an email and see whether we can work something out

[baileyman]

Timing the tongue is a big deal. One can get a terrific big band style out of striking the tongue on the beat. A nice hot accent is then natural. Or time the tongue for the lift-off on the beat instead of the strike. I find the liftoff a seamless undisturbance and organ-like note beginning. That one feels like marcato where liftoff starts the tone.

Tongue seems to vary based on pitch or chop tension, not sure exactly which it is. But here's an experiment. Play some middle note, maybe a C, but form the tongue for an ee vowel. Then gliss the tongue to an ah vowel. Pay attention to what the chops do because they will do something to maintain the pitch. Now, do it again by tonguing some quarters, gradually glissing from ee to ah. It's possible the tongue needs to do something different along the way. But it's all the same pitch!

The tongue may need to do something different than expected in order to get the desired result.

[AndrewMeronek]

I've found that working on controlling 'vowels' when playing to be a great way to approach articulation practice. Basically, it's pretty 'natural' to use 'eee' for high, 'uuu' for low, and variations in-between, but try breaking those patterns in practice and seeing what happens can be pretty fun and informative. Combine that with different articulations for legato/marcato/etc. and there's tons to practice and think about. For my own practicing, here are a few things I notice:

There is an 'ideal' vowel for each pitch that usually happens if the tongue stays relaxed, but sometimes I have to consciously search for it because especially over some articulations and intervals I have some habits that break me out of 'relaxed'. This is strongly correlated with overtone singing.

What feels weird and even what makes things not work is fine to play around with in practice - this tells me boundaries.

Find and get rid of diphthongs where reasonable. I.e., if the pitch isn't changing, a note is more stable if the vowel doesn't change. So: taaaaa, not teaaaaa, nor taaaae.

I have a really hard time with diphthongs when 'k'-articulating. But playing around with that was how I figured out a way to do a functional flutter-tongue last year - the first time I had ever done a true one. Pretty cool.

Lots of trombone pedagogy revolves around having a very soft and consistent legato tongue. But it's equally important to have a very harsh and consistent 'hard' articulation. Don't be afraid to really slap a note with extreme force.

[PhilTrombone]

Since you are after "random" thoughts, JamesSP......

Your issue seems like a "timing" issue, meaning getting your tongue in place at the right moment, before you start expelling any air.

I visualize my tongue as a valve. To use a metaphor, think about a water hose.
If there is no pressure, nothing comes out. If water pressure is present before the valve is closed, you are going to get a leak.


For a minute forget the trombone. Just sit in a chair and breathe normally (without thinking about it). We inhale, then there is a moment when the lungs do nothing, before the exhalation starts.
In that moment, before exhaling, we have to get ready for the initial attack.

We do the same thing when we play. We have to get our valve (embouchure, and tongue) closed before applying the outbound breath. We have the added complication of doing this in time with the music at hand, which means inhaling with enough time so that you have a moment to set up your chops before applying the exhale.

There are other issues that might apply, like the placement of the tongue, like your instructor identified.

I have always found the (seemingly simple, yet not really) Carmine Caruso exercises to be perfect for locking in this timing we are talking about.
Check out this playlist:

The aspect to really focus in on in these videos is the counting before starting a note.

Hope this helps. If not, well it was "random".

[Doug Elliott]

I am REALLY not a fan of the counting and timing approach. I've seen too many cases where I think that caused the problem or made it worse.

[baileyman]

I've found that working on controlling 'vowels' when playing to be a great way to approach articulation practice. Basically, it's pretty 'natural' to use 'eee' for high, 'uuu' for low, and variations in-between, but try breaking those patterns in practice and seeing what happens can be pretty fun and informative. Combine that with different articulations for legato/marcato/etc. and there's tons to practice and think about. For my own practicing, here are a few things I notice:

There is an 'ideal' vowel for each pitch that usually happens if the tongue stays relaxed, but sometimes I have to consciously search for it because especially over some articulations and intervals I have some habits that break me out of 'relaxed'. This is strongly correlated with overtone singing.

What feels weird and even what makes things not work is fine to play around with in practice - this tells me boundaries.

Find and get rid of diphthongs where reasonable. I.e., if the pitch isn't changing, a note is more stable if the vowel doesn't change. So: taaaaa, not teaaaaa, nor taaaae.

I have a really hard time with diphthongs when 'k'-articulating. But playing around with that was how I figured out a way to do a functional flutter-tongue last year - the first time I had ever done a true one. Pretty cool.

Lots of trombone pedagogy revolves around having a very soft and consistent legato tongue. But it's equally important to have a very harsh and consistent 'hard' articulation. Don't be afraid to really slap a note with extreme force.

Lotsa practice ideas in here. And life was already seeming short!

[GabrielRice]

Where are you located? I can probably help you.

[AndrewMeronek]

Lotsa practice ideas in here. And life was already seeming short!

Thanks!

[NorthernEuph]

If you can find a copy of "Arnold Jacobs:Legacy of a Master", read the chapter contributed by Richard H. Erb. It sounds like he was dealing with a similar issue. He goes into some detail describing the problem and how he worked through it with the guidance of Mr. Jacobs.

[biggiesmalls]

Since the OP is seeking divergent ideas, I'm going to go way out on a limb here. Left-brain types will likely dismiss this post as a bunch of New Age wuwu, which is fine (I wish Sam Burtis were here to back me up), but it's actually ancient knowledge that has helped me to overcome the very issue that the OP is experiencing.

In the Vedic chakra system, each of the body's seven major chakras spins either clockwise or counterclockwise, with adjacent chakras spinning in opposite directions, like a vertical stack of meshing gears.

The fourth and fifth chakras are known respectively as the heart and throat chakras. For men, the heart chakra spins counterclockwise, while the throat chakra spins clockwise. For women, the chakras spin in the opposite directions, for reasons too esoteric to go into here. For the non-binary, please excuse my lack of knowledge regarding the application of the chakra system to your particular situation.

In relation to playing a wind instrument, the heart chakra identifies with balance, while the throat chakra identifies with decisiveness. Significantly, the heart and throat chakras intersect or mesh at exactly the point where the air exits the lungs through the bronchus into the trachea.

Whenever I have issues with initial attacks, I spend a few minutes doing some breathing exercises while visualising the correct spin directions of my heart and throat chakras, focusing on the point at the bronchus where the two mesh. When I pick up the horn again, my initial attacks are secure and instantaneous.

Balance meshing with decisiveness is the key concept.

The attached images, along with a detailed explanation of the chakra system, can be found here: https://www.healing-art-community.com/t ... r-chakras/

[JamesSp]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone, some interesting ideas, I appreciate the time.

Nothing "fixed" yet but I had a lesson with Doug who was very generous with his time and thoughts so im going to stick with what we discussed and see if I can make some progress with that.

[JamesSp]

I just watched in another thread someone posted a video of Doug Yeo in the MRI machine I think it is.
Super interesting. My tongue "naturally" moves in no way even close to resembling what I was seeing there. Glad I revisited this website after so long, good lot of exercise for the brain.

[Elow]

Tom Hooten just went live on instagram earlier today and was also talking about chakras and how brass playing relates, i thought it was really interesting. If you dont follow him, i would really recommend it, he posts some really good information about the human aspect of brass playing, and really good trumpet playing popping up on your feed never hurts.

[JamesSp]

Tom Hooten just went live on instagram earlier today and was also talking about chakras and how brass playing relates, i thought it was really interesting. If you dont follow him, i would really recommend it, he posts some really good information about the human aspect of brass playing, and really good trumpet playing popping up on your feed never hurts.

I dont have an instagram account but I'll check out the link. I've been very lucky to have the pleasure of performing with Tom before, such a sound! Totally captivating at every point.