Hi everyone,
As I am new here and don't really know where to start, I hope I'm not being clumsy and my questions are not too dumb.
I've realise that I would like to learn trombone and even though I'm no musician, it is not by doing nothing that I will solve anything.
I wish I would like to learn another instrument, meaning an instrument which is cheaper to buy but well...I just love trombone.
Anyway, from what I've been gathering it seems that the Yamaha YSL345 or King 606 are good, correct me if I'm wrong.
I haven't really understand the difference between mouthpiece yet but that is probably me.
I'm looking at small ads but how can you know that an instrument is good. In europe prices are quite silly and often very close to the brand new instrument, I have a friend in canada at the moment but my budget is quite limited.
Therefore, yamaha, king, other (I would prefer to avoid plastic trombone)
I'm sure that this question has been ask a 1000time but I find the internet a bit confusing and being a father of 2 my time on the internet is rather limited so hence the post and the question for a quicker (more selfish?!) answer.
Thanks
Beginner and newbie question.
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ttf_anonymous
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ttf_BGuttman
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Beginner and newbie question.
There are a number of decent student model trombones out there: Bach TB-300, Blessing 128, Conn Director, Holton TR-600, King 606 or 605 (Cleveland), Olds Ambassador, Yamaha 354 or 352. There are others.
What mouthpiece? One that fits the instrument. Many of us start with the equivalent of a Bach 12C or Bach 6.5AL. The 6.5AL is larger than the 12C, but for a rank beginner either will do.
If you are buying a used instrument you should have somebody who knows how to play test it out for you. He will be looking for leaks, bad solder joints, and misalignment of the slide. Even new instruments can have problems.
If you buy from a music store, make sure they can do repairs if you need any (hopefully not, but just in case).
Also, see if you can find somebody to give you a few lessons in the beginning. It will help get you going much quicker. Still, if you are planning to play in a Carneval band next February, I wouldn't expect you will be ready (although most likely by Carneval 2019).
Good luck.
What mouthpiece? One that fits the instrument. Many of us start with the equivalent of a Bach 12C or Bach 6.5AL. The 6.5AL is larger than the 12C, but for a rank beginner either will do.
If you are buying a used instrument you should have somebody who knows how to play test it out for you. He will be looking for leaks, bad solder joints, and misalignment of the slide. Even new instruments can have problems.
If you buy from a music store, make sure they can do repairs if you need any (hopefully not, but just in case).
Also, see if you can find somebody to give you a few lessons in the beginning. It will help get you going much quicker. Still, if you are planning to play in a Carneval band next February, I wouldn't expect you will be ready (although most likely by Carneval 2019).
Good luck.
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ttf_LowrBrass
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Beginner and newbie question.
Quote from: BGuttman on Dec 19, 2017, 02:09PMWhat mouthpiece? One that fits the instrument. Many of us start with the equivalent of a Bach 12C or Bach 6.5AL. The 6.5AL is larger than the 12C, but for a rank beginner either will do.
I'm not sure if Bruce means a mouthpiece with a character that suits the instrument, or a mouthpiece that literally fits into the mouthpiece receiver.
If he means a mouthpiece that suits the instrument, I wouldn't worry about that right now--just get a 12C or a 6 1/2AL.
If he means a mouthpiece that literally fits into the receiver... for any student horn, make sure that 12C or 6 1/2AL is a SMALL SHANK mouthpiece.1,2
1 "Large shank" mouthpieces are made for larger trombones. If you get a large-shank mouthpiece, it won't fit in your student trombone.
2 Large-shank 12Cs are rare, but large-shank 6 1/2ALs are pretty common.
I'm not sure if Bruce means a mouthpiece with a character that suits the instrument, or a mouthpiece that literally fits into the mouthpiece receiver.
If he means a mouthpiece that suits the instrument, I wouldn't worry about that right now--just get a 12C or a 6 1/2AL.
If he means a mouthpiece that literally fits into the receiver... for any student horn, make sure that 12C or 6 1/2AL is a SMALL SHANK mouthpiece.1,2
1 "Large shank" mouthpieces are made for larger trombones. If you get a large-shank mouthpiece, it won't fit in your student trombone.
2 Large-shank 12Cs are rare, but large-shank 6 1/2ALs are pretty common.
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ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist
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Beginner and newbie question.
My favorites of the student branded trombones mentioned are the Olds Ambassador ( LA era mostly, mine is from the mid 40s as I recall ) and any Yamaha M1 ( I have a new one that is really nice to play and the ones with the flared braces, 352 I think, are great ).
But thats just my opinion based on having two examples still in my collection.
Feel free to let us know what you find locally and we can give our opinions on what we think would suit a beginner best and hold up over time.
As far as an instrument being good at first glance on an ad... hard to tell unless you can gauge whether or not the seller is being honest and the pictures show the condition well. If there are no dents or scratches chances are that its mechanically fine.
But thats just my opinion based on having two examples still in my collection.
Feel free to let us know what you find locally and we can give our opinions on what we think would suit a beginner best and hold up over time.
As far as an instrument being good at first glance on an ad... hard to tell unless you can gauge whether or not the seller is being honest and the pictures show the condition well. If there are no dents or scratches chances are that its mechanically fine.
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ttf_sirisobhakya
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Beginner and newbie question.
Please avoid plastic trombone if you really want to learn the instrument. Also avoid Chinese-made or Indian-made horns, no matter how cheap they are (except for some brands like Wessex, but generally please avoid them). Online purchase should also be avoided if you don't know the seller well or have no chance to see/test-blown the instrument first, or in your case, have someone who plays trombone test it for you first.
For the mouthpiece, I personally recommend the 6.5AL (or 6 1/2 AL, equivalent to Yamaha 48), because it is the size roughly in the middle of the range. But 12C is also fine.
For the mouthpiece, I personally recommend the 6.5AL (or 6 1/2 AL, equivalent to Yamaha 48), because it is the size roughly in the middle of the range. But 12C is also fine.
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ttf_vegasbound
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Beginner and newbie question.
Have you got yourself a trombone teacher? If not this would be the best investment you can make!
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ttf_afugate
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
Beginner and newbie question.
Quote from: vegasbound on Dec 20, 2017, 12:12AMHave you got yourself a trombone teacher? If not this would be the best investment you can make!
-Andy in OKC
-Andy in OKC
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ttf_watermailonman
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:36 pm
Beginner and newbie question.
Trombone: Yamaha 354. Yamaha do make student horns with pro quality, that's one thing they are famous for.
Mouthpiece: My choice Bach 6 3/4C which is a bit larger than an 11C.
A Bach 12C mentioned earlier, is often what comes with a new student horn. It is a good mouthpiece for young students because it has a shallow cup and does not suck a lot of air. It also has a small rim. The size is perfect to fit young students with small mouths
The professionals today who use a Bach 12C rarely uses it for classical playing because it does not give an easy low register. For jazz or Big Band lead playing it works better because the high notes are clear and easy. Most professionals find the 12C out of place for their needs and go a tad bigger and use a Bach 11C-ish mouthpiece or they go even larger. If you are an adult then you could skip the 12C because you have a larger mouth and bigger lungs than a child. A Bach 6 1/2 AL small shank is a mouthpiece that can be used to cover the whole register and fits both jazz and classical playing. It has a wider rim and is deeper. The backside is it sucks a little more air. What you gain is a fuller sound in the whole register (with practice). Even though the rim is wider than a 12C the high register is not per sec more difficult. It depends on the player. The deeper cup and larger back bore gives a fuller low register compared to the 12C. The 6 1/2 AL is well regarded and is used by both professionals and students.
/Tom
Mouthpiece: My choice Bach 6 3/4C which is a bit larger than an 11C.
A Bach 12C mentioned earlier, is often what comes with a new student horn. It is a good mouthpiece for young students because it has a shallow cup and does not suck a lot of air. It also has a small rim. The size is perfect to fit young students with small mouths
The professionals today who use a Bach 12C rarely uses it for classical playing because it does not give an easy low register. For jazz or Big Band lead playing it works better because the high notes are clear and easy. Most professionals find the 12C out of place for their needs and go a tad bigger and use a Bach 11C-ish mouthpiece or they go even larger. If you are an adult then you could skip the 12C because you have a larger mouth and bigger lungs than a child. A Bach 6 1/2 AL small shank is a mouthpiece that can be used to cover the whole register and fits both jazz and classical playing. It has a wider rim and is deeper. The backside is it sucks a little more air. What you gain is a fuller sound in the whole register (with practice). Even though the rim is wider than a 12C the high register is not per sec more difficult. It depends on the player. The deeper cup and larger back bore gives a fuller low register compared to the 12C. The 6 1/2 AL is well regarded and is used by both professionals and students./Tom
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ttf_Christophe
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Beginner and newbie question.
Hi,
BGuttman, thanks for your insight on different horns, I'll have a look at those I did not know about.
Concerning the few lessons, well, Trombone is not soothing I want to learn since last week, but I moved to Portugal and there is a carnival band in town (even though it is a very small town) and they could do (in the futur, 2019 being probably not futuristic enough
)with more trombone player that's why I thought seriously about giving it a go as I will not be alone with a horn (if I do find one that fit the budget)
LowrBrass, thanks I'll make sure to be careful about the shank
Full Pedal Trombonist, I'll check those one also. My main trouble at the moment is to find something local, so far..nothing, that is also why I'm looking on ebay, but you can only rely on what the seller wants to tell you...
sirisobhakya, thanks, I will avoid plastic for obvious environmental reason as well as not wanting to be fighting with learning topped with a shi..y instrument
vegasbound & afugate, see above, my reason to think about getting a horn is mainly because I know I will not be on my own to start with.
watermailonman, thanks, being 6"9' (2M05) and french, I do have a large mouth (excuse the joke, I could not resist), so I'll definitely try to start with a 6 ½ AL
One last question for now, what are you thinking is a minimum budget? Is 250-300 (300-350$) a complete utopia?
Once again many thanks for all the answers and advices
Christophe
BGuttman, thanks for your insight on different horns, I'll have a look at those I did not know about.
Concerning the few lessons, well, Trombone is not soothing I want to learn since last week, but I moved to Portugal and there is a carnival band in town (even though it is a very small town) and they could do (in the futur, 2019 being probably not futuristic enough
)with more trombone player that's why I thought seriously about giving it a go as I will not be alone with a horn (if I do find one that fit the budget)LowrBrass, thanks I'll make sure to be careful about the shank
Full Pedal Trombonist, I'll check those one also. My main trouble at the moment is to find something local, so far..nothing, that is also why I'm looking on ebay, but you can only rely on what the seller wants to tell you...
sirisobhakya, thanks, I will avoid plastic for obvious environmental reason as well as not wanting to be fighting with learning topped with a shi..y instrument
vegasbound & afugate, see above, my reason to think about getting a horn is mainly because I know I will not be on my own to start with.
watermailonman, thanks, being 6"9' (2M05) and french, I do have a large mouth (excuse the joke, I could not resist), so I'll definitely try to start with a 6 ½ AL
One last question for now, what are you thinking is a minimum budget? Is 250-300 (300-350$) a complete utopia?
Once again many thanks for all the answers and advices
Christophe
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ttf_BGuttman
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Beginner and newbie question.
You are certainly not small (btw, the correct way is 6'9" - 203 cm?).
You can get a nice instrument in the US for 300 Euro, but I don't know what the general tariff is in Portugal. You might want to check with Thomann and see if they have anything used. Also, contact the carnival band and see if they can loan you a trombone to learn on. And see if any of our European members are selling anything in the Classifieds.
Note: DJ Kennedy, who is based in the US, ships to Europe. You might want to send him an e-mail or personal message. He might have something that can fill the bill.
You can get a nice instrument in the US for 300 Euro, but I don't know what the general tariff is in Portugal. You might want to check with Thomann and see if they have anything used. Also, contact the carnival band and see if they can loan you a trombone to learn on. And see if any of our European members are selling anything in the Classifieds.
Note: DJ Kennedy, who is based in the US, ships to Europe. You might want to send him an e-mail or personal message. He might have something that can fill the bill.
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ttf_Christophe
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Beginner and newbie question.
Hi Bruce,
Not small...yeap that would qualify
I have a friend who is in canada at the moment and could bring me a trombone but there is too many online offer without anything sure about quality...Europe is quite expensive at least what I saw on ebay or other 2nd hand website.
The carnival has horns but they have to stay with them and they play just once a week (as I said it is a very small town, but they have a carnival)
I checked the classified, not all, but with the name of the horns I've been advised...so far nothing, but I'm keeping an eye open
I'll contact DJ kennedy, thanks
Meanwhile if anyone as a yamaha 354 or a king 606 that could be send to canada, let me know.
Christophe
Not small...yeap that would qualify
I have a friend who is in canada at the moment and could bring me a trombone but there is too many online offer without anything sure about quality...Europe is quite expensive at least what I saw on ebay or other 2nd hand website.
The carnival has horns but they have to stay with them and they play just once a week (as I said it is a very small town, but they have a carnival)
I checked the classified, not all, but with the name of the horns I've been advised...so far nothing, but I'm keeping an eye open
I'll contact DJ kennedy, thanks
Meanwhile if anyone as a yamaha 354 or a king 606 that could be send to canada, let me know.
Christophe
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ttf_stephenkerry
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm
Beginner and newbie question.
There doesn't appear to be many brass retailers in Portugal! Eurommusica in Lisbon appear to sell Yamaha YSL354, though they appear to have very little brass. Within Europe you could try Thomann in Germany (they do a lot of on-line sales, but I haven't dealt with them), or John Packer or Wessex Tubas in UK. The Rath-Packer trombones at John Packer are worth considering.
If you import from outside Europe, consider any import taxes you might incur.
If you import from outside Europe, consider any import taxes you might incur.
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ttf_Christophe
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Beginner and newbie question.
Hi Stephen,
As you said, not many retailers in Portugal...Eurommusica is not having second hand and doesn't even put the price for the yamaha.
Thomann...not second hand either and I don't know what to think about their line as they don't really say where it is coming from (I suspect china..)
I checked John Packer...seems interesting even though at the moment a lot of them are not in stock
Importing...that's another one of my problem(the list is long ), here in Portugal they even tax you on secondhand, even gift, as soon as it come from US, the custom are being greedy...
I will see...
Thanks again for all the answers
As you said, not many retailers in Portugal...Eurommusica is not having second hand and doesn't even put the price for the yamaha.
Thomann...not second hand either and I don't know what to think about their line as they don't really say where it is coming from (I suspect china..)
I checked John Packer...seems interesting even though at the moment a lot of them are not in stock
Importing...that's another one of my problem(the list is long
), here in Portugal they even tax you on secondhand, even gift, as soon as it come from US, the custom are being greedy...I will see...
Thanks again for all the answers
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ttf_watermailonman
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:36 pm
Beginner and newbie question.
Quote from: Christophe on Dec 21, 2017, 01:01PMHi Stephen,
As you said, not many retailers in Portugal...Eurommusica is not having second hand and doesn't even put the price for the yamaha.
Thomann...not second hand either and I don't know what to think about their line as they don't really say where it is coming from (I suspect china..)
I checked John Packer...seems interesting even though at the moment a lot of them are not in stock
Importing...that's another one of my problem(the list is long ), here in Portugal they even tax you on secondhand, even gift, as soon as it come from US, the custom are being greedy...
I will see...
Thanks again for all the answers
Tax is the same in Sweden as in Portugal as we are both EU countries.
If you buy within EU then you just add shipping. Check out trombones from Great Britain before they leave EU. If you buy from US you first add shipping and then add about 31% extra on everything. That covers taxes, customs and the bank fee for converting money USD/EURO. It is not cheap for us to win ebay auctions. We have to pay more, but used instruments are also more expensive in shops here compared to US so we have no better option really. Most interesting horns sell from US.
Unfortunately prices on ebay has increased and the dollar also went up by 30% against the SKR. I stopped buying from ebay (US) in the beginning of 2014. Recently this summer when the dollar got a little cheaper (10%) I did an exception and bought an used Elkhart Conn 62h from US. I had to pay a lot to win that. Unfortunately it did not play very well when it arrived here, but outcome was good. After a cheap repair it turned out to be a very good horn.
/Tom
As you said, not many retailers in Portugal...Eurommusica is not having second hand and doesn't even put the price for the yamaha.
Thomann...not second hand either and I don't know what to think about their line as they don't really say where it is coming from (I suspect china..)
I checked John Packer...seems interesting even though at the moment a lot of them are not in stock
Importing...that's another one of my problem(the list is long
), here in Portugal they even tax you on secondhand, even gift, as soon as it come from US, the custom are being greedy...I will see...
Thanks again for all the answers
Tax is the same in Sweden as in Portugal as we are both EU countries.
If you buy within EU then you just add shipping. Check out trombones from Great Britain before they leave EU. If you buy from US you first add shipping and then add about 31% extra on everything. That covers taxes, customs and the bank fee for converting money USD/EURO. It is not cheap for us to win ebay auctions. We have to pay more, but used instruments are also more expensive in shops here compared to US so we have no better option really. Most interesting horns sell from US.
Unfortunately prices on ebay has increased and the dollar also went up by 30% against the SKR. I stopped buying from ebay (US) in the beginning of 2014. Recently this summer when the dollar got a little cheaper (10%) I did an exception and bought an used Elkhart Conn 62h from US. I had to pay a lot to win that. Unfortunately it did not play very well when it arrived here, but outcome was good. After a cheap repair it turned out to be a very good horn.
/Tom
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ttf_stephenkerry
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm
Beginner and newbie question.
Second-hand is very variable in UK. You have to be lucky to find a good private purchase, and most people would not want to ship outside UK. Stores will, but their prices are higher, they also will have serviced the instrument. Maybe worth travelling. Good luck
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ttf_vegasbound
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Beginner and newbie question.
Quote from: stephenkerry on Dec 21, 2017, 03:14PMSecond-hand is very variable in UK. You have to be lucky to find a good private purchase, and most people would not want to ship outside UK. Stores will, but their prices are higher, they also will have serviced the instrument. Maybe worth travelling. Good luck
Disagree with both parts of your statement...there are some very good horns available second hand in the Uk, but yes as with any purchase buyer beware is always advised...and many sellers do ship
Disagree with both parts of your statement...there are some very good horns available second hand in the Uk, but yes as with any purchase buyer beware is always advised...and many sellers do ship
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ttf_Christophe
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Beginner and newbie question.
Tom, from what I could gather from portuguese customs, 3,2% of custom tax plus 23% VAT. I will see. Still I find surprising that they tax on item price + shipping...might be just me seeing them greedy!
StephenKerry, Vegasbound, I have friends in UK who were looking for me...nothing much at least in my budget. Concerning shipping outside UK (or US), I have encounter both type of seller, the one willing to ship and the one just wanted to sell national...well, they probably both have their reasons
Apparently Santa thought I was a good guy this year, a very good friend of mine is in Vancouver at the moment and he found a King 606 from 1986, in hard case, without major dent in it and from war the seller said, it just need some slide O mix as it was stored for quite some time. Price seems really low, but the seller said that he wanted someone to enjoy it...we will see, I'm still believing in human nature.
It's coming with a 12C mouth piece, I will see if I change this as I'm quite a big person, but I'm already chuffed (but keeping my finger cross and hoping that it is as good as the seller said)
Thanks again for all the answer and info...no it is time to wait...
Christophe
StephenKerry, Vegasbound, I have friends in UK who were looking for me...nothing much at least in my budget. Concerning shipping outside UK (or US), I have encounter both type of seller, the one willing to ship and the one just wanted to sell national...well, they probably both have their reasons
Apparently Santa thought I was a good guy this year, a very good friend of mine is in Vancouver at the moment and he found a King 606 from 1986, in hard case, without major dent in it and from war the seller said, it just need some slide O mix as it was stored for quite some time. Price seems really low, but the seller said that he wanted someone to enjoy it...we will see, I'm still believing in human nature.
It's coming with a 12C mouth piece, I will see if I change this as I'm quite a big person, but I'm already chuffed (but keeping my finger cross and hoping that it is as good as the seller said)
Thanks again for all the answer and info...no it is time to wait...
Christophe
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ttf_Christophe
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Beginner and newbie question.
Tom, from what I could gather from portuguese customs, 3,2% of custom tax plus 23% VAT. I will see. Still I find surprising that they tax on item price + shipping...might be just me seeing them greedy!
StephenKerry, Vegasbound, I have friends in UK who were looking for me...nothing much at least in my budget. Concerning shipping outside UK (or US), I have encounter both type of seller, the one willing to ship and the one just wanted to sell national...well, they probably both have their reasons
Apparently Santa thought I was a good guy this year, a very good friend of mine is in Vancouver at the moment and he found a King 606 from 1986, in hard case, without major dent in it and from war the seller said, it just need some slide O mix as it was stored for quite some time. Price seems really low, but the seller said that he wanted someone to enjoy it...we will see, I'm still believing in human nature.
It's coming with a 12C mouth piece, I will see if I change this as I'm quite a big person, but I'm already chuffed (but keeping my finger cross and hoping that it is as good as the seller said)
Thanks again for all the answer and info...no it is time to wait...
Christophe
StephenKerry, Vegasbound, I have friends in UK who were looking for me...nothing much at least in my budget. Concerning shipping outside UK (or US), I have encounter both type of seller, the one willing to ship and the one just wanted to sell national...well, they probably both have their reasons
Apparently Santa thought I was a good guy this year, a very good friend of mine is in Vancouver at the moment and he found a King 606 from 1986, in hard case, without major dent in it and from war the seller said, it just need some slide O mix as it was stored for quite some time. Price seems really low, but the seller said that he wanted someone to enjoy it...we will see, I'm still believing in human nature.
It's coming with a 12C mouth piece, I will see if I change this as I'm quite a big person, but I'm already chuffed (but keeping my finger cross and hoping that it is as good as the seller said)
Thanks again for all the answer and info...no it is time to wait...
Christophe