TromboneChat

I had my Olds Custom briefly in the Classifieds and there was a comment about this horn being an Olds Super. Here are my thoughts:

My guess is that it is a prototype Custom that was built before the P-15. It is engraved "Olds Custom Model" on the 2-piece yellow brass bell. There is nothing on the bell that would indicate it was another model bell at some other point and the original engraving was buffed out or somehow hidden by the new engraving.  At the threaded part of the bell where the slide attaches, the word "TESTING" is stamped in all caps.

My Custom has:
1) ...a rose brass ferrule between the gooseneck and tuning slide receiver. Supers are all nickel-silver.  I can't recall if any small bore Olds horns had rose-brass ferrules.

2) ...a one-piece flared brace at the handslide cork barrels. Supers are 3-piece.

3) ...a straight tubular nickel handslide brace with oval-shaped ends.  Ambassadors have a similar handslide brace, but the oval-shaped ends are squared-off on the sides.  Supers have flared 3-piece braces.  Standards have round 3-piece braces.

4) ...yellow-brass outer slide tubes with a nickel-silver crook and no oversleeves. Supers have nickel-silver outer tubes and crook. Standards have nickel-silver oversleeves with brass outers and crook.

5) ...a press-fit leadpipe.

6) ...rose-brass rings at the very end of the yellow brass outer slide tubes.  I can't recall if any Olds small bore horns had this feature.







IMHO, my horn is not a P-15, a Super, a Standard or an Ambassador. There are parts on this horn not found on any other small bore Olds (to my knowledge).  It is as the engraving states, an "Olds Custom Model". 1 of 1

Whatever it is.... It is a thing of beauty, and it must play accordingly!

More for the mystery , Leo-
Recordings--small bore- do have red brass ferrules.

Olds did use common parts to re-purpose horns. For example, my own P-15 has a tuning slide made from Ambassador Bass tuning side parts. Completely interchangeable, but the P-15 part was nickle, and the Ambassador was yellow.

Quote from: LeoInFL on Dec 17, 2017, 09:15AM---snip---

2) ...a one-piece flared brace at the handslide cork barrels. Supers are 3-piece.


Not trying to take either side, but I have a Super (142XX) which has a one-piece flared brace at the handslide. My other Super (225XX) does have a 3-piece brace, like you say.

No sides on either side, here. It is a thing of beauty. A friend has a real Los Angeles Ambassador. I would kill for that horn--- and I never even played it to try it.

Vintage Olds gear is absolutely beautiful. The P-15 and P-16? Legends and reports here on TTF indicate that Frank Rosolino might have had a hand in the P-15, certainly, if you watch youtube video of The Tonight Show Band under Doc Severinson, there is video that all three tenor bones in that band were playing P-15s and the bass bone was playing an Olds P-24G.

Sinatra's lead trombonist had a huge hand in the P-16 and the modern Olds 12C mouthpiece. A P-16 with the Olds 12C is breathtaking. Like an alto trombone, but one pitched in Bb.

I recently found a mint condition 1960 Opera. I have no regrets about selling my vintage Olds small bores. I never will get rid of the Recording or the ( new, new to me anyway) 1960 Opera.

I'm using a new Wick Steven Mead 9BS Mead baritone mouthpiece in an Opera with an adapter, and it defies description. I can't categorize it..but the selling feature is that a 100% all nickle silver Olds bone vibrates so much my hand goes numb from the vibration. Huge horn in a straight .554...and it plays like.....nothing else. It just sings.

No sides here, brother. Anything Olds is golden... Ambassador to the highest professional quality horn..just golden. Just trying to solve an unsolvable mystery.

If it says "Custom" likely a session player on the West coast needed a special weapon and just went to the factory and had one knocked together. Custom means priceless....even if there was a price then.

I came across a photo of an Olds Studio that has the same handslide tubular nickel brace as my Custom. The outer slide is similar: no oversleeves, yellow brass outer tubes, nickel-silver crook - but the slide crook guard has a half-moon style 'bumper' instead of the peg that mine has.

The neckpipe, tuning slide, cork barrels, and braces (except the brace on the handslide itself) look to be Super parts. The one-piece cork barrel brace was used on Supers for the first few years after the streamline braces were introduced. It's a little odd in that it's different from what was being used on Supers that are contemporary with Leo's horn, but it's still a Super part.

I can't say anything conclusive about the handslide end crook; nickel silver is consistent with being a Super part, but the pic is too blurry to tell if it's a one-piece crook or if there are ferrules. A one-piece crook would be a Super part.

The bell, obviously, isn't a Super part. It could be an old stock Standard or early Special bell (both were yellow brass), it could be an Ambassador bell, or it could be something they fabricated specifically for this horn. Given that all of those possibilities involve the same tooling, it's largely a moot point.

The outer tubes are the usual "one-piece" type used on most Fullerton-era Olds trombones; they have what amounts to a stocking at the top end, rather than a soldered-on oversleeve. Since several models used yellow brass outers of that design, there's no way to say for certain where they came from.

That handslide brace is interesting. It's very similar to an Ambassador brace, but (as Leo pointed out), the flanges are a different shape. Here's where it gets interesting: the LA Ambassadors had a one-piece oval brace on the handslide; the round brace came later.

Then there are the little rose brass rings on the inners and the rose brass ferrule between the neckpipe and the tuning slide. Those may well be unique to this horn.

Now for my theory. I think this was a one-of-a-kind special order, rather than a prototype. It doesn't resemble any production model, and it uses the then-obsolete one-piece cork barrel brace. If I remember Leo's description elsewhere correctly, it's single-bore .485". I can't imagine Olds (or anyone else, for that matter) trying to develop a mass-produced .485" bore horn as late as the mid-1950's - but I could certainly imagine an individual player wanting one.

Although Olds used the one-piece brace on the Ambassador as a cost-saving measure, I think we see it here as an attempt to save weight. It would be lighter than a conventional round three-piece brace (no solder, no overlap) and much lighter than the streamlined Super-style brace (be they one-, two-, or three-piece). It would be interesting to know if the flange dimensions on the brace on Leo's horn are such that the brace could be an Ambassador part with the flanges cut down from the standard diamond shape to oval (once again, a weight-saving measure).

Quote from: JohnL on Dec 17, 2017, 09:33PMI can't say anything conclusive about the handslide end crook; nickel silver is consistent with being a Super part, but the pic is too blurry to tell if it's a one-piece crook or if there are ferrules. A one-piece crook would be a Super part.
It's not a 1-piece crook. Nickel-silver crook guard, Nickel-silver crook and separate nickel-silver ferrules. The water key retainer screw is brass.

Quote from: JohnL on Dec 17, 2017, 09:33PMThat handslide brace is interesting. It's very similar to an Ambassador brace, but (as Leo pointed out), the flanges are a different shape. Here's where it gets interesting: the LA Ambassadors had a one-piece oval brace on the handslide; the round brace came later.

Although Olds used the one-piece brace on the Ambassador as a cost-saving measure, I think we see it here as an attempt to save weight. It would be lighter than a conventional round three-piece brace (no solder, no overlap) and much lighter than the streamlined Super-style brace (be they one-, two-, or three-piece). It would be interesting to know if the flange dimensions on the brace on Leo's horn are such that the brace could be an Ambassador part with the flanges cut down from the standard diamond shape to oval (once again, a weight-saving measure).

Rethinking this. At least some L-15 Specials had a one-piece handslide brace with oval flanges, so that's a more likely origin than my fancy "custom-modified Ambassador brace" theor.

Quote from: JohnL on Dec 17, 2017, 09:33PMThat handslide brace is interesting. It's very similar to an Ambassador brace, but (as Leo pointed out), the flanges are a different shape. Here's where it gets interesting: the LA Ambassadors had a one-piece oval brace on the handslide; the round brace came later.

Although Olds used the one-piece brace on the Ambassador as a cost-saving measure, I think we see it here as an attempt to save weight. It would be lighter than a conventional round three-piece brace (no solder, no overlap) and much lighter than the streamlined Super-style brace (be they one-, two-, or three-piece). It would be interesting to know if the flange dimensions on the brace on Leo's horn are such that the brace could be an Ambassador part with the flanges cut down from the standard diamond shape to oval (once again, a weight-saving measure).

Rethinking this. At least some L-15 Specials had a one-piece handslide brace with oval flanges, so that's a more likely origin than my fancy "custom-modified Ambassador brace" theor.