Here's a monster masterclass by one of the greats. I'm referring to the point I linked below, but please make the time to watch the whole thing at some point (or better, multiple points).
Basbasun wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:17 am
The abrupt endings are good. That is how good trombonists sound. How he does it could be something to talk about, it sounds good. Glottis stop? Tongue stop? (tongue stop can be very good, listen to Timofey Dokshizer whou told us how it can sould if done with perfection) I think he just stoped blowing and breathed.
Markey is talking about the glottal stop in reference to shorter notes, but I think it's also applicable to notes that we want to have a clear "cutoff" to but don't want to tongue stop, no matter the length.
Re: Note releases: glottal stops
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:33 pm
by Posaunus
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:21 pm
Here's a monster masterclass by one of the greats. I'm referring to the point I linked below, but please make the time to watch the whole thing at some point (or better, multiple points).
Jim Markey is a marvelous teacher (as well as an incredible player and a fine person).
We should all be envious of his students.
Re: Note releases: glottal stops
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:36 pm
by timothy42b
I was at that lecture sitting up front. Yes, well worth watching again, several times. I've changed how I move the slide based on his ideas too.
Glendenning was there and fell out of his chair at the glottal note stop section, they later went to dinner to discuss. I wish I had been there.
Re: Note releases: glottal stops
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:52 pm
by Kdanielsen
This masterclass is pure gold
Re: Note releases: glottal stops
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:58 am
by timothy42b
Yes, probably should be stickied.
Re: Note releases: glottal stops
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:42 am
by Basbasun
I really admire Mark, he is a fantastic player. When he talk about the glottis stop, however, I am not with him. It is funny when he does the whstling trick, whisling seris of tones in a row. He starts every tone with the glottis, as most people do. But the last tone, he is not ending the tone with the glottis, he just stop blowing, as most people do.
Re: Note releases: glottal stops
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:04 am
by timothy42b
Basbasun wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:42 am
I really admire Mark, he is a fantastic player. When he talk about the glottis stop, however, I am not with him. It is funny when he does the whstling trick, whisling seris of tones in a row. He starts every tone with the glottis, as most people do. But the last tone, he is not ending the tone with the glottis, he just stop blowing, as most people do.
Can we unpack that a tiny bit more?
How do you stop blowing?
(caveat: I try to think of a continuous air stream and don't worry too much about how I interrupt it, but the details are interesting.)
If we take in a big breath, there are maybe three phases, right?
If we take in a lot of air, the stretch of the lungs, chest muscles, etc., tries to drive it out, and we have to resist it squirting out prematurely. We do this with some countertension from diaphragm and other muscles. The diaphragm contracts to suck air in, and we maintain enough contraction to hold it back.
In the second phase, the natural elasticity of the lungs/chest makes the air flow out with us neither holding back nor forcing out, up to the neutral resting point.
In the third phase, past the neutral resting point, we must force the air out by squeezing intercostal muscles, and by contracting the abdominal muscles, forcing the abdominal contents up against the diaphragm and getting the last bit of air out. With good planning you can avoid playing in this region most of the time.
In phase 1 and 2, to stop blowing would seem to mean activate the diaphragm to prevent it's natural relaxation from pushing any air out. Do we really think the diaphragm is that quick and precise? It seems more like a major muscle group to me.
Re: Note releases: glottal stops
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:27 pm
by Doug Elliott
Refer to my last post in the other thread. I'll try to paste it here.
Re: Note releases: glottal stops
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:29 pm
by Doug Elliott
Refer to my last post in the other thread. I'll try to paste it here.
-------
Blow like you're blowing out a candle. How do you stop blowing?
Go through the alphabet, saying each letter and pay close attention to how you start and stop each one. Many letters start with the glottis closed, (A for example) but end by simply stopping the air.
Yell "Hey you" like you're getting somebody's attention across the street. Maybe that's not such a good example...
Both words end by simply letting the vocal chords open to stop vibrating, no tongue or glottis involved. You can also just stop the push of air. You don't have to close the glottis.
-------
Yes Tim, it does feel like a slight sudden reversal of the push out. But it's not "closing" anything. For me it can easily be "quick and precise."
Re: Note releases: glottal stops
Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:48 pm
by Burgerbob
Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:29 pm
Refer to my last post in the other thread. I'll try to paste it here.
Basbasun wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:42 am
I really admire Mark, he is a fantastic player. When he talk about the glottis stop, however, I am not with him. It is funny when he does the whstling trick, whisling seris of tones in a row. He starts every tone with the glottis, as most people do. But the last tone, he is not ending the tone with the glottis, he just stop blowing, as most people do.
Can we unpack that a tiny bit more?
How do you stop blowing?
(caveat: I try to think of a continuous air stream and don't worry too much about how I interrupt it, but the details are interesting.)
If we take in a big breath, there are maybe three phases, right?
If we take in a lot of air, the stretch of the lungs, chest muscles, etc., tries to drive it out, and we have to resist it squirting out prematurely. We do this with some countertension from diaphragm and other muscles. The diaphragm contracts to suck air in, and we maintain enough contraction to hold it back.
In the second phase, the natural elasticity of the lungs/chest makes the air flow out with us neither holding back nor forcing out, up to the neutral resting point.
In the third phase, past the neutral resting point, we must force the air out by squeezing intercostal muscles, and by contracting the abdominal muscles, forcing the abdominal contents up against the diaphragm and getting the last bit of air out. With good planning you can avoid playing in this region most of the time.
In phase 1 and 2, to stop blowing would seem to mean activate the diaphragm to prevent it's natural relaxation from pushing any air out. Do we really think the diaphragm is that quick and precise? It seems more like a major muscle group to me.
Tim, you are really thinking a lot! That is good that some trombonists do that.
Of course you are right! To stop blowing we maintain contraction to hold the airflow back. The diaphragm is holding the air in the lungs by almosting starting an inhalation. And the intercostal muscles is holding the chest up. The diaphragm does not have touch nerves, you can not fe the diaphragm it self, but it is controled by your wish to inhale, it does react very precise and fast.
Is tha hard to do? No. We all are doing it all the time, without thinking about it, when whistling, singing, talking. Sometimes we may think about something we do naturally, trying to figure out what we really do. How do you use the muscles in your legs when walking? Think about it!
Re: Note releases: glottal stops
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:38 pm
by PaulT
If I understand glottal stops correctly, it's something every whistler does, without thinking, when they whistle "Here Comes Santa Claus" .
If that's not it... then never mind.
(I'm also assuming that the vibrato I use while whistling is breath vibrato. Which is also a vibrato I use on trombone, along with slide, and to be joined, slowly but somewhat surely, I think, by jaw vibrato. But breath V is what I brought with me from the trumpet when I made the switch in fifth grade.)
Re: Note releases: glottal stops
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:55 pm
by PaulT
Oh, I just noticed Basbasun had already broached the whistling/glottal/unthinking business. But, as I offered a specific and very useful example of glottal stop in a timeless classic song we all know and love to back up his point, I will leave my post.
