TromboneChat

Any tips for hearing yourself better on loud gigs, especially commercial type ones? Ideally beyond just cranking monitor mixes past the maximum and having sound engineers hate you every time.

Musician earplugs, if you're not already using IEMs.

Play with bands that keep stage volume low. They do exist.

Otherwise,
1. Earplugs
2. Play by feel
3. Back off on your own volume

You can't compete with electronics, you will only hurt yourself

Anymore, I seldom play with bands without a nice set of foam earplugs. I practice with them at home too. You get TONS of feedback from yourself. The only downside is it's a little harder to hear if you're blending with others because you come across so strong with them. In rehearsals, I would put them in, get a feel for how it sounded and then take them out so I could gauge how loud the band was playing and what it felt like. I think I have a pretty good balance. Or at least the bands I've been playing with seem to not have a problem with it when I ask them.

The ideal solution is in-ear monitors and your own mix. (You can get a system that's controlled from an app on your phone these days! Although it looks a bit weird to be pulling your phone out all the time on stage...)

If not, sometimes a reflector of some kind helps (something that bounces your sound back to you).

These are very expensive, but totally outstanding. I have an earlier version.

https://www.etymotic.com/product/music-pro-elite/

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 1:01 pm These are very expensive, but totally outstanding. I have an earlier version.

https://www.etymotic.com/product/music-pro-elite/

I noticed on the site "Pre-Order" was the only option. Are these not yet released?

I don't know - I haven't looked at that site for a long time. It says "in stock" so something just hasn't been updated. I bought the older ones that use hearing aid batteries (at a show a few years ago, maybe TMEA?), and the website shows rechargeable ones, plus it looks like they have better features now. That company makes great stuff.

They work great but I hate dealing with the tiny batteries.

They're like hearing aids that constantly adjust their volume to the situation. With them in, you can hear normal conversation pretty normally, and when the band is playing they drop the volume so it never gets too loud.

If you're playing with a microphone I highly recommend the sound back. I love this thing!

https://www.dillonmusic.com/sound-back- ... ute-winds/

IEMs are great too if it's an option.

When I have my own personal monitor mix the sound crew uses this for me.
https://www.guitarcenter.com/Rolls/PM50 ... 1hEALw_wcB

When I'm on a gig without my own personal crew, I bring this to gigs. You'll need a XLR>1/4" converter too, but you can plug up to 4 IEMS in there. The only thing is you have to agree on a mix with the other horn players, but it works out when those other musicians are your friends
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... lsrc=aw.ds

Doug is on it... choose a horn that gives you masses of feedback, put in earplugs and relax. Just had two weeks of that...really cheap foam plugs work for me, and they magnify the feedback from the horn.

Chris

I'm following this thread closely. My main gig is very loud at times(suspended cymbal the worst offender) and I've gone through various plugs. Unlike FOSSIL the foam plugs don't work for me. I had some custom plugs made many years ago that I wore for 90% of my show unless I came to a major solo passage and then I removed the left one. I need to check out what Doug posted above. The in ear monitors would be great but we're prohibited from using our phones for any reason during the performance, thanks to a few selfish people who just couldn't seem to silence them. I believe I have the Musician Earplugs the BurgerBob speaks of and they were great. Unfortunately after about 10 years on constant use they lost their shape and I had new ones made. They use a different material than the previous ones and they have already lost their shape. The search goes on.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 2:09 pm I'm following this thread closely. My main gig is very loud at times(suspended cymbal the worst offender) and I've gone through various plugs. Unlike FOSSIL the foam plugs don't work for me. I had some custom plugs made many years ago that I wore for 90% of my show unless I came to a major solo passage and then I removed the left one. I need to check out what Doug posted above. The in ear monitors would be great but we're prohibited from using our phones for any reason during the performance, thanks to a few selfish people who just couldn't seem to silence them. I believe I have the Musician Earplugs the BurgerBob speaks of and they were great. Unfortunately after about 10 years on constant use they lost their shape and I had new ones made. They use a different material than the previous ones and they have already lost their shape. The search goes on.

Another thing to look into is ear filters. The company I went with for ear plugs (filters actually) is a local spot called Sensaphonics. They're amazing and give you less of that plugged up feeling. What Doug posted is great too. I know folks that have purchased IEMs with a similar technology, also from Sensaphonics. They love them, but it's too rich for my blood! The IEMs though, are somewhere in the $2k range.

JLivi wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 2:53 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 2:09 pm I'm following this thread closely. My main gig is very loud at times(suspended cymbal the worst offender) and I've gone through various plugs. Unlike FOSSIL the foam plugs don't work for me. I had some custom plugs made many years ago that I wore for 90% of my show unless I came to a major solo passage and then I removed the left one. I need to check out what Doug posted above. The in ear monitors would be great but we're prohibited from using our phones for any reason during the performance, thanks to a few selfish people who just couldn't seem to silence them. I believe I have the Musician Earplugs the BurgerBob speaks of and they were great. Unfortunately after about 10 years on constant use they lost their shape and I had new ones made. They use a different material than the previous ones and they have already lost their shape. The search goes on.

Another thing to look into is ear filters. The company I went with for ear plugs (filters actually) is a local spot called Sensaphonics. They're amazing and give you less of that plugged up feeling. What Doug posted is great too. I know folks that have purchased IEMs with a similar technology, also from Sensaphonics. They love them, but it's too rich for my blood! The IEMs though, are somewhere in the $2k range.

Yes! I should've mentioned that my first pair were from Sensaphonics. After about 10 years of wear they lost their shape. The Local 802 replacements were a dud. IEMs are not in my future but I just inquired about the ones that Doug Elliot mentioned and they got back to me. Hopefully when I go back to work in October I'll have a few choices to try out.

I haven't played a gig in years, and when I was in top form I didn't have the budget I do now, so I probably would have considered different options. That said, I love my custom-fit IEMs, and I could definitely see using them for this purpose if I ever get back into decent enough shape to play in front of anyone. Some very solid options have already been mentioned. The ones I use for daily listening are by a Polish company called Custom Art: https://thecustomart.com/. You can certainly spend a lot in this area if you want to... options extend well into the thousands for the high end, as has been mentioned. Several IEM brands are available at a more budget-friendly range. I believe Custom Art's single driver model starts around 300 EUR, and there are options from others even lower than that last I checked.

Some shy away from custom fit monitors - I know I did for a long time. Comparing my universals to custom IEMs are like night and day from a comfort perspective. Universals probably work better for different ear shapes, but I can't wear them long without discomfort. Getting molds made was much easier than I expected... about 20 minutes in a local place that specializes in hearing aids. I was the youngest guy in the shop that day, but the person who did my fitting has his own custom IEMs, so he knew exactly what I needed and why. I think the molds cost like $30-40 USD. I've heard you can diy this, but personally, I'd leave it to the pros. If you go this route, many suggest getting some bite blocks to rest your jaw on while the silicone sets up. You don't usually want molds made with your jaw closed, as your ear canals will change shape as your jaws open, and a closed-jaw impression can result in loss of seal when you open your mouth (important if you plan to play with IEMs). Blocks are cheap (~$5) and readily available online if you can't find them locally. Your thumb or something around that size can make a decent stand-in if you don't have a bite block. Once impressions are made, it is just down to packing them up and shipping them to the IEM maker.

You can go with softer silicone outers or a firmer acrylic for the IEM shell. Some people find one or the other more comfortable. Personally, I found that I like the hard shells, and they hold their shape very well over time. Unless you go with a wireless option like Doug suggested, you'll need cables to connect the IEMs to the sound source, and there are a few options for this. It can get a little confusing, but a lot of audiophile guides cover this pretty well - one example is here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-dif ... rs.938264/. Two-pin and MMCX seem to be the predominant two varieties for most IEM makers.

Hope some of that helps. Interesting topic.

This is a little outside the topic, it's a story about 35 years ago. I played in a big band that was very loud. I think nobody used ear plugs that time. We played a tune by Chick Corea, Spain. In the end of that tune the band leader told me to make a slow glizz from low E down to the the tonic low pedal A. Lot of times and in the end he made me stand in the front of band when doing that tune.

In the beginning I blow as strong I could. Because the guitar, bass and drums was set at very high volume. And the band leader just wanted me to play as loud as possible.

I remember coming home after all this gigs with the ears and head still full of sound. What I did after two or three performance was to block my ears and lower the volume from 5 fffff to on f.

Guess what? The band leader told it was more powerful, and I never told I just blow a little less.

I wonder what the woodwinds in front of trombones and trumpets really feel? Can't be healthy in the long run?

Leif

After using earplugs for a lot of years I got tired of not being able to hear my nice trombone sound that I work so hard to get!
I started using a personal monitor with line through for the mic to the sound board and in ear headphones. It’s a great combination that lets me hear myself well (allowing me to play properly) and protects me from the excessive stage noise. I have been using it consistently for the past 5 years now.

Rolls PM55P personal monitor
Shure 215 earphones
Shure beta 98h clip on mic

And adjacent page to the one Doug pointed to

https://www.etymotic.com/product/er20xs/

shows the company now offers their excellent passive filters in a common silicone bud-mount, a mod I did several years ago and am very happy with, using 9dB filters. It used to be you had to get custom forms made for the filters, which was way overkill for the problem.

With passive filters of different dB you can fine-tune the amount of head noise versus gig noise you want. The 9dB I settled on because most everything I get involved with tops out at about 95dB, and mid-80s net of the filter seems like a workable reduction. I get too much head noise with most foam filters.

Having had tinnitus most of my adult life and having worked as a firefighter and paramedic, my hearing is showing its age. To protect it, I use hearing protection for nearly every activity and ordered a pair of the etymotic pro elite ear filters. I went to a couple of rehearsals recently and realized how loud things are since I've been home most of the past year in a quiet environment. They arrive today and I will evaluate them over the summer and update this thread with my thoughts. I have used the filtered passive plugs but felt I missed out on too much when trying to blend. I do use the passive filters for everyday activity where you still want to converse and protect against loud noise such as using chainsaws and power tools. They excel at that.

Jerry

This has been a hugely informative thread so far, thank you all!

Sniffynose wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 8:43 pm After using earplugs for a lot of years I got tired of not being able to hear my nice trombone sound that I work so hard to get!
I started using a personal monitor with line through for the mic to the sound board and in ear headphones. It’s a great combination that lets me hear myself well (allowing me to play properly) and protects me from the excessive stage noise. I have been using it consistently for the past 5 years now.

Rolls PM55P personal monitor
Shure 215 earphones
Shure beta 98h clip on mic

This sounds very very similar to my experience. I do have three pairs of good quality ear plugs - two generic silicone buds ~$30 (Earasers & Alpine MusicSafe Pro, and I believe I've tried the cheaper Etymotics in the past too) and one pair of $200 custom-molded ones that were a very expensive mistake - they don't help at all. The generic ones do help some, both in lowering stage volume and giving a little head noise, but it's just not enough. I definitely still overblow and have trouble tuning, and it's just an ongoing struggle.

I've just purchased the Rolls PM50s Personal Monitor Amp, along with the Shure 215s (and a 10ft earphone extender cable). I already use and love the beta 98h/c, so I'm very optimistic for this option! Combining the earbud protection with the personal monitoring makes a lot of sense to me.

On a separate note, I'm also curious as to how much difference anyone who plays a horn with a set-back bell (like the Lawler Model 2) notices in terms of feedback?

Glad that helped!
If you have trouble getting a good fit from the 215’s, there are some aftermarket foams that are longer and fit deaper into the ear. (Amazon)
I had to get these for the best comfort - then i just leave them in on the set breaks to use like eat plugs!

MagnumH wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:56 am
I've just purchased the Rolls PM50s Personal Monitor Amp, along with the Shure 215s (and a 10ft earphone extender cable). I already use and love the beta 98h/c, so I'm very optimistic for this option! Combining the earbud protection with the personal monitoring makes a lot of sense to me.

You're going to love this setup! Depending on your situation one thing you might want to consider down the road is a wireless clip on mic. All this gear is great to have, but sometimes eliminating one of your "leashes" is nice too.

Is there a particular wireless clip-on that's good now? I haven't looked at them in a long time.

JLivi wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 7:57 pm
You're going to love this setup! Depending on your situation one thing you might want to consider down the road is a wireless clip on mic. All this gear is great to have, but sometimes eliminating one of your "leashes" is nice too.

I’m excited! Two gigs this weekend (two gigs!!) so I’ll definitely get a chance to try it out. Wireless is definitely appealing - and I believe the wireless version of the beta 98H is an excellent choice - for the future. Though I’d also then look for a way to make the IEMs wireless, for proper freedom. Ah, when enough gigs come along to justify it!

I use an AMT Q7-P808 with a small personal mixer and IEMs. The AMT system is expensive, sounds great, has enough outputs to feed to the main board and my personal mixer, lightweight, requires no body pack transmitter, and also has a wired preamp. I use the mix from someone else in the band but since my signal is also coming directly to my mixer I can adjust my level independently of the band level to my monitors. This setup is 100 times more enjoyable to play compared to foam earplugs.

https://appliedmicrophoneshop.com/products/amt-q7-p808

I think that's the one I bought from a forum member a few years ago, and I could never get it to work. Gotta get it fixed... The mic and clip on setup is kind of big and clunky, but I like the idea of it.

I wish Audio Technica still made a small wireless with integrated transmitter instead of a belt pack. I used to use one but it was on the old frequency range.

Does your transmitter have a non-removeable rechargeable battery or use a single AA battery? I have a colleague who had a non-removeable battery and after years of use he had to charge it between sets to make sure it would last through a three hour gig. It's possible your transmitter is dysfunctional- and it's hard to know since all it has is a switch, LED, and IR transmitter. I remember having a tough time getting the frequency pairing to work but once I figured it out it was a simple process.

The clip works great for me. It is shaped to fit the bell rim and weighs only 137 grams with the mic, clip, and transmitter. It's much nicer than be wired to the trombone since I can just put the horn on a stand, unplug my monitors and walk away from the stage.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 9:13 am I think that's the one I bought from a forum member a few years ago, and I could never get it to work. Gotta get it fixed... The mic and clip on setup is kind of big and clunky, but I like the idea of it.

...

The best clip-on sound I've heard is a mic that's attached to the bell directly (stuck on there!). I heard Ray Anderson use it on a gig, and it was quite surprising - since the mic is attached to the "back" of the bell, you can't see it from the audience. I think it's supposed to pick up vibrations directly from the horn or something, and it sounded *phenomenal* (in the sense that I, in the audience, didn't even know he was using amplification; it sounded completely acoustic/natural).

I believe it's made by AMT. Anyone know the thing?

PaulTdot wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 11:04 am The best clip-on sound I've heard is a mic that's attached to the bell directly (stuck on there!). I heard Ray Anderson use it on a gig, and it was quite surprising - since the mic is attached to the "back" of the bell, you can't see it from the audience. I think it's supposed to pick up vibrations directly from the horn or something, and it sounded *phenomenal* (in the sense that I, in the audience, didn't even know he was using amplification; it sounded completely acoustic/natural).

I believe it's made by AMT. Anyone know the thing?

It reminds me of the Remic microphone - a small rubber disc that clips onto the bell with the mic inside. I have a trumpet player friend who uses it and loves it, and I do love the low profile. It's a painfully pricey option though, at $700 for the mic alone and $800 just to have it be compatible with a beltpack transmitter.

Another vote here for doing "something" to protect your hearing. I've done so zealously since playing a Barry White date years ago as part of the "Love Unlimited Orchestra" with inadequate plugs - had tinnitus most of the two days. I went for a hearing test (no lasting harm), and had cast Etymotic plugs made. I have 9, 15, and 25dB color-coded inserts for all occasions. The 15 and 9dB see the most use. The 25dB are there for the sporadic electronically amplified tectonic movement affair. Do yourself a favor if you haven't yet and you will extend your career. Protect your ears.

Their plugs are great. You can avoid some cost by acquiring the filters (Bezos seems to be the best place) and gluing them in to earbud cushions, polyurethane cement works great. And they now make some that work pretty well with silicone cushions. Anyway, I also like the 9dB best. For very loud gigs I have tried using a busker amp pointed back at me so I could compete. Not at all a satisfactory situation.

I have come to realize that hearing is a finite resource. It depletes ineluctably with time. I think plugs reduce the rate, but the rate of runoff remains always above zero.

I was in similar situation and I have a backup kludged in-ear that taps off my mic. so if needed I can feed my voice directly into them. They are not sealed so I can hear everything else on stage as well

Just digging into this thread about earplugs/IEMs. Sitting in front of scream trumpets has taken its toll on me. The new pass through EIMs with db reducing filter options look promising. I have used Etymotics for years:

https://www.etymotic.com/product/custom ... ttenuator/

but it is so difficult to play well with them in. I am doing new research presently if anyone is also looking for options. It seems to be a growing market,

Ear Piece Music Pro
https://www.earpeace.com/products/music-pro

D’Addario dBud Earplugs
https://www.daddario.com/products/acces ... s-premium/

Minuendo by Soundbrenner
https://www.soundbrenner.com/minuendo/

Decibullz 31db
https://www.decibullz.com/decibullz-cus ... -31db-nrr/


IEM - Westone with the EAS series filters ( I currently use Westone different series, considering switching to this)

https://westoneaudio.com/product-catego ... s-filters/

Also this product is out now for hearing your own sound back has anyone used this?

https://kgumusic.com/products/deflector ... s-trombone

wheelabaker wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:31 am
Also this product is out now for hearing your own sound back has anyone used this?

https://kgumusic.com/products/deflector ... s-trombone

Our lead tenor sax player uses a similar item (clips on the bell) and swears by it. I’ve been thinking about trying one.

Can’t you achieve the same effect by angling your music stand a certain way?

Plexiglas ring around the mic, about 9” diameter with a hole that fits around the mic shank (installed before plugging in mic), reflects back sound. DIY or you can find online. Filtering ear plugs. Alway be to left of drummer in case you need to ease the left plug out to monitor yourself in the bell side. One pit type situation I got the plexi on the back of my chair like orchstral cellos or winds might use.

Eventually the plugs save you and you get better playing by feel

We use Aviom monitors for our in ears, no stage monitors at all. Each member can adjust volumes on 16 channels. Vocals, guitars, keyboard, bass guitar, talkback channel, and too many drum channels. Horns aren’t in it, but I leave one ear open to hear myself. Drums enclosed, so there isn’t a lot of sound on the stage. Big improvement over the half dozen monitors on the stage!

I use just foam plugs inserted halfway. I can still "hear" but it protects my ear drums from being blown out by the trumpets. If it's completely sealed in the ear, forget about it. All I hear is the sound of the trombone as heard through skull filled with brains.

Filled with brains, huh?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:44 pm I use just foam plugs inserted halfway. I can still "hear" but it protects my ear drums from being blown out by the trumpets. If it's completely sealed in the ear, forget about it. All I hear is the sound of the trombone as heard through skull filled with brains.

Hi All,

I just bought a Rolls PM55P and some IEM's for doing pop/rock gigs. I like the idea of the setup, but I'm having an issue. My microphone is distorting terribly:

I'm using an Audio Technic Pro35. Even with the Mic level set to as low as possible (any lower and the sound cuts out entirely) the mic comes through extremely loud and distorted. Is this thing just not able to handle an AT35 or is there a trick I'm missing?

For context I am practicing with the setup running through a focus rite 2i2 right now, I have not yet had a chance to use this on the gig, but my AT35 works great live. so I don't think it's a cable issue. Also when I use the AT35 into the focus rite out to the same in ear monitors with phantom power and direct monitoring everything sounds great.

Cheers

papaslides wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:07 pm Hi All,

I just bought a Rolls PM55P and some IEM's for doing pop/rock gigs. I like the idea of the setup, but I'm having an issue. My microphone is distorting terribly:

I'm using an Audio Technic Pro35. Even with the Mic level set to as low as possible (any lower and the sound cuts out entirely) the mic comes through extremely loud and distorted. Is this thing just not able to handle an AT35 or is there a trick I'm missing?

For context I am practicing with the setup running through a focus rite 2i2 right now, I have not yet had a chance to use this on the gig, but my AT35 works great live. so I don't think it's a cable issue. Also when I use the AT35 into the focus rite out to the same in ear monitors with phantom power and direct monitoring everything sounds great.

Cheers

Hi Papaslides,

The Rolls's fixed 50dB 'mic' gain is too much and the signal distorting immediately on preamp stage - you are right, the unit not able to handle the AT-PRO35 signal (in actual situation) in 'MIC' position of 'MIC INPUT LEVEL' switch.
Try to switch to 'LINE' and set the level higher with 'mic level'.

I hope this helps
(I am not musician just a tech of a band and I am just looking for relevant opinions/experiences about direct (analog) iem monitoring of own mic versus whole monitor mix from digital mixer with some latency - focusing on phasing of body transmission and iem)

...Yes... english isn't my native language

We have an aging sound system at our church, which doesn’t help the quality of sound with our IEM setup. I found what works best for me is IEM in one ear to get the mix I want of the rest of the sounds, and leave my right ear open to hear myself better. No on stage monitors, usually 3 vocals, all other instruments are guitars, keyboards, and an enclosed drum set with several mics, so the stage is fairly quiet with every instrument plugged into the sound system…brass usually loudest thing on the stage. I have a mic for trumpet and trombone, which is probably not needed due to good acoustics in the sanctuary. Euph bell points straight up, and French horn bell points back so the fixed mic in front doesn’t really work for them. Word is both of the latter instruments (and trumpet and t-bone) are clearly heard throughout the room in the amplified mix.

In ear monitors are the only way to go… and, it saves your hearing.