Double valve tenor

ttf_Nick bastrombone · Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:51 am

Hai folks,

Are they're any brands that make two valve tenors , its the concept of a double valve tenor sounds interesting.
A inline independed.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:12 am

I had a prototype from Wessex. Fun horn. Really couldn't find a place to play it. Sold it to a guy in DC.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:29 am

Quote from: hyperbolica on Dec 03, 2017, 06:12AMI had a prototype from Wessex. Fun horn. Really couldn't find a place to play it. Sold it to a guy in DC.

I knew it was a guy around here whod had one. Seems like the kinda Billy Mays-thing, like, everything about a great bass trombone, minus the great bass trombone sound!

Thats my opinion on it though. Doesnt seem like its worth all the extra positions when we all know we dont know anything once we get past 5

(kidding on that last bit of course)

ttf_Horn Builder · Post by **ttf_Horn Builder** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:55 am

M&W would be happy to build one for you.

M

ttf_chromebone · Post by **ttf_chromebone** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:33 am

Why not add a third valve while we're at it, solder the handslide in place, play French Horn and Bass Trumpet parts and call it a day.

FWIW, Shires tried them in the early 2000's and it didn't catch on.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:08 am

Quote from: chromebone on Dec 03, 2017, 07:33AMWhy not add a third valve while we're at it, solder the handslide in place, play French Horn and Bass Trumpet parts and call it a day.

FWIW, Shires tried them in the early 2000's and it didn't catch on.

Were they built with any sort of purpose, or just the spectacle of it? The tenor player who occasionally is called in on bass but only wants to own one horn?

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:17 am

Quote from: Horn Builder on Dec 03, 2017, 06:55AMM&W would be happy to build one for you.

M

do you guys build altos?

ttf_scharnhorst · Post by **ttf_scharnhorst** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:37 am

Schagerl Muthorn.!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itrHfHWDtTg
But I don't know they're making them now.

ttf_chromebone · Post by **ttf_chromebone** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:39 am

Quote from: davdud101 on Dec 03, 2017, 08:08AMWere they built with any sort of purpose, or just the spectacle of it? The tenor player who occasionally is called in on bass but only wants to own one horn?

It struck me as the tenor trombonist's version of turning your amp up to 11.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:44 am

Quote from: davdud101 on Dec 03, 2017, 08:08AMWere they built with any sort of purpose, or just the spectacle of it? The tenor player who occasionally is called in on bass but only wants to own one horn?

In the Bad Old Days, a Big Band trombone section would have 3 small bore tenors (Bach 12 or so) and the 4th started on the same size instrument. Later somebody (Bart Varselona?) figured out that a symphonic tenor with F would add a larger dimension and still blend.

Nowadays bass trombone parts are written expecting a double valved instrument, but the 3 top horns are often still small bores. So a symphonic tenor with two valves could serve nicely as the low voice in such an ensemble. I think George Roberts was headed in this direction in his old age, but only using a single valve.

ttf_MikeBMiller · Post by **ttf_MikeBMiller** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:51 am

It could be useful for someone with really short arms. Say, for example, T-Rex.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:00 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Dec 03, 2017, 08:44AMIn the Bad Old Days, a Big Band trombone section would have 3 small bore tenors (Bach 12 or so) and the 4th started on the same size instrument. Later somebody (Bart Varselona?) figured out that a symphonic tenor with F would add a larger dimension and still blend.

Nowadays bass trombone parts are written expecting a double valved instrument, but the 3 top horns are often still small bores. So a symphonic tenor with two valves could serve nicely as the low voice in such an ensemble. I think George Roberts was headed in this direction in his old age, but only using a single valve.

This actually makes it make sense. But even then it doesnt necessarily have quite that rich, mellow, BIG sound from a proper bass-bore horn.

Of course Id totally get one if I could!!

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:02 am

Quote from: chromebone on Dec 03, 2017, 07:33AMWhy not add a third valve while we're at it, solder the handslide in place, play French Horn and Bass Trumpet parts and call it a day.

FWIW, Shires tried them in the early 2000's and it didn't catch on.

That was Greenhoe, really. They also made a 3-valve section for a Bach 36 at one point.

ttf_Dukesboneman · Post by **ttf_Dukesboneman** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:03 am

Trombonist Glenn Ferris plays a double trigger Tenor. I believe he used to have a 2 valve King 3B for a while.
Not sure what he`s playing now..
Glenn`s a tremendous player. I remember seeing him with the Don Ellis Big band back when dirt was young.
His trio albums are fantastic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ej27CFREQo

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:08 am

Quote from: chromebone on Dec 03, 2017, 07:33AMWhy not add a third valve while we're at it, solder the handslide in place, play French Horn and Bass Trumpet parts and call it a day.

FWIW, Shires tried them in the early 2000's and it didn't catch on.

They (Schagerl) did. And Holton before them too (piston though). It is called a superbone....

ttf_chromebone · Post by **ttf_chromebone** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:15 am

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Dec 03, 2017, 09:02AMThat was Greenhoe, really. They also made a 3-valve section for a Bach 36 at one point.

Now it makes sense to me. I recall Charlie Vernon playing one at some point when he played tenor and I know he wasn't a Shires artist.

The double valve thing might make more sense in that scenario when a bass trombonist wants to play tenor and they are so used to using that second valve.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:42 am

There are some 20th century solos and orchestral works that are much easier with a second valve on tenor. Some of those composers really wanted that low B...

ttf_Driving Park · Post by **ttf_Driving Park** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:53 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Dec 03, 2017, 08:44AMIn the Bad Old Days, a Big Band trombone section would have 3 small bore tenors (Bach 12 or so) and the 4th started on the same size instrument. Later somebody (Bart Varselona?) figured out that a symphonic tenor with F would add a larger dimension and still blend.

To be fair, the King 1485 Symphony that Bart bought to try in the Kenton band was marketed as a bass trombone at the time. Its bore is .536 but it has a bass flare. I used to have one...it didn't work very well as a symphonic tenor.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:55 am

I have a two-valve section for my Shires. I absolutely love it. It is dependent and sometimes I wonder if I wouldn't have been better off making it dependent because there are some cool combinations you can get with a G valve, for example, that would make more sense than they would on a bass in some ways. Certainly the lower stuff isn't as important as bass in most circumstances. For example, if you have a tenor and a bass, you probably will play something like a cello suite on a bass. Or at least that's my tendency.

Now, my love for it doesn't necessarily mean it was the most prudent acquisition that I've made. In hindsight, I would have been better of doing something with the funds. I originally wanted to build a smallish bass that felt just a touch tighter than a Duo Gravis and have a really good tenor/bass setup built around that valve. I had a 9" bell for it and it played very well but it was not a bass. Basically any bass trombone functions better than it did as a bass. In my estimation. It would have been a very fine instrument as a second bass for occasions that warranted something smaller... swing dance exclusive set, 3rd to an alto, etc. But even then, I was in a swing dance band and one of my former professors commented that even for Miller charts, the bass I was using gave me a better commercial style sound. So it goes.

The nice thing about it is that it does give me a very clean access to the low B natural and any time I'm practicing flexibility it gives a very easy access into the lower register. I still like practicing that range on a tenor and on a bass because they are very different and playing one seems to help the other. It also is very nice to have access to that rage on an instrument meant for improvising. I have a 525/547 slide made for it that I would necessarily play for lead in a big band but works very well for combo work.

Of course, take that with a grain of salt. But I would say that in my direct experience, you would do better having a double bass and a single tenor. Because the cost of the additional rotor + tubing + linkages, etc. you would be well on your way to having a bass.

ttf_Rockymountaintrombone · Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:02 am

It wasn't a stock instrument, but I believe that Stuart Dempster played an 88H that had been converted to a double valve horn. He was, of course, a modern music specialist, so having a fully chromatic low register and extra technical possibilities made sense for him - not sure that it's practical for most players.

Jim Scott

ttf_Horn Builder · Post by **ttf_Horn Builder** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:15 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 03, 2017, 08:17AMdo you guys build altos?

Stay tuned!!

Yes, we made a few double tenors with the previous employer. The 36 that had a double section was originally pitched in G and Ab (giving F combined) The owner then decided to add the half step valve. It started out a really cool idea, with some great alternate position possibilities. But the 3rd valve negated the coolness. IMO

M

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:47 pm

Quote from: chromebone on Dec 03, 2017, 09:15AMThe double valve thing might make more sense in that scenario when a bass trombonist wants to play tenor and they are so used to using that second valve.

I didn't consider that! Good point and logical conclusion

ttf_Nick bastrombone · Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:31 pm

This is why i ask for it : when i plays on a tenor i use sometimes my 2nd finger and there is no trigger pfff

QuoteThe double valve thing might make more sense in that scenario when a bass trombonist wants to play tenor and they are so used to using that second valve.

Matt K Edit: Fixed quote tag

ttf_Stan · Post by **ttf_Stan** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:33 am

I've always been interested in double tenors, but I guess the real question is when would a double tenor make more sense than a bass? Get yourself a bass that can play light, and that would seem to me to negate any real value in a double tenor. Do we really need an entire valve just to play a B that's hardly ever written in tenor literature anyway?

ttf_LeoInFL · Post by **ttf_LeoInFL** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:00 am

With our local community orchestra I play 1st book but for the small ensembles (40-musician choir accompaniment, pit orchestras, etc) I play the bass book on my large bore tenor (Getzen 3047AFR). When there are a fair amount of low B's I have used the Eb tuning slide with good results, but having 2 valves would be my preference (minus the breath support requirements of a standard bass).

My search continues for a double-valve tenor/small bass. I'd love to find a beat up 73H or 62H bell section to pair with the mint Conn SL4762 slide I own, but those are tough to find. I've recently reached out to the tech at Greenhoe/Schilke to price out a double 0.562" bore set of valves (standard rotary or Greenhoe) that would plug into my Getzen bell & tuning slide (no response btw).

If a double-valve tenor were to be offered by one of the trusted importers (Wessex or Mack Brass) I'd be one of the 1st in line.

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:02 am

I always felt like if you did a lot of pit work, it might be a good instrument to own

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:12 am

Quote from: Stan on Dec 04, 2017, 09:33AMI've always been interested in double tenors, but I guess the real question is when would a double tenor make more sense than a bass? Get yourself a bass that can play light, and that would seem to me to negate any real value in a double tenor. Do we really need an entire valve just to play a B that's hardly ever written in tenor literature anyway?

The real reason for a double tenor is to avoid owning two horns and finding yourself in the situation where you might need either frequently. Carry two mouthpieces instead of two instruments. I had a Holton tr159 that would have been perfect with a plugin valve. My P24g takes a smaller mouthpiece very nicely, and you can play tenor parts all day on it. So I think the problem can be approached from either side (sizing up a tenor or sizing down a bass). I think the 9 inch bell allows you to go either way, and a dual bore slide helps in avoiding a bass/tenor commitment. Problem is, people typically don't aspire to playing 3rd parts all the time. My 70h is more definitely a bass because of the 9.5" bell, even though it has a single valve and a 547/562 slide. But if I had to choose, and I had to have one instrument that could play both bass and tenor, I'd down size a bass. That's why to me the Olds P24g is so perfect. You might not play in the Chicago brass section with it, but it can do just about anything else on either the bass or tenor side.

Some people also really like a G valve. The p24g can be set up in F/G, which I find a really cool way to play. If you had a career playing Bordogni down an octave, an F/G combo would be brilliant. For less soloistic/melodic stuff, stuff that's more bass voice, the F/Gb probably works better.

The double tenor I had definitely had a lot of rasp in the lower range (meaning anything below the staff). The bigger bell throat in a real bass along with other aspects tends to smooth that out.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:33 pm

Quote from: hyperbolica on Dec 04, 2017, 11:12AM
The double tenor I had definitely had a lot of rasp in the lower range (meaning anything below the staff). The bigger bell throat in a real bass along with other aspects tends to smooth that out.

I think that's the kicker. Even if you COULD do all tenor or bass stuff, you're realistically just getting easier access to some notes that are already there in the tenor range, plus a low B. To me it seems superfluous when the sound is still that of a tenor and you're quite literally adding a single, rather rare chromatic note to the range with an entire additional set of piping.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:04 pm

Quote from: davdud101 on Dec 04, 2017, 03:33PMI think that's the kicker. Even if you COULD do all tenor or bass stuff, you're realistically just getting easier access to some notes that are already there in the tenor range, plus a low B. To me it seems superfluous when the sound is still that of a tenor and you're quite literally adding a single, rather rare chromatic note to the range with an entire additional set of piping.

Its not just B, its also C. You can't get a real C on a tenor without giving something else up. Low C is a money note. And its not just a couple notes, its a passable bass sound. Obviously not a big Thein or 578 bore Edwards with axials, but the sound is more than just a raspy tenor. If you get a horn like the P24g it actually sounds like a bass. You're talking about a tenor player who splits their time on bass. There's gonna be a compromise somewhere. I've been playing (with) bass for a couple years, about 30% of my mouthpiece time. I've learned a bit, but don't feel in command yet. I don't think I'll ever really get there. And thats fine. I don't get in over my head with it, and I don't destroy my tenor chops. Its a compromise. I'm not going to be Blair Bollinger and Joe Alessi.

ttf_EWadie99 · Post by **ttf_EWadie99** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:21 pm

I think that a double valve tenor could be a good idea to use for more lighter settings where you still need two valves and where the bass trombone part (3rd or 4th depending on the chart) isn't as demanding for a low range sound and to blend nicely with the other trombones with smaller bores. The most common use for them would be jazz I think but in songs like Moanin' by Charles Mingus Big Band, I would definitely use a bass to really get these pedals, especially improvising around pedal F.

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:50 pm

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Dec 04, 2017, 11:02AMI always felt like if you did a lot of pit work, it might be a good instrument to own
For fun, I build a double valve Eb-Bb-G tenor. Kinda like a bass trombone and a tenor are both in Bb, this is an Eb tenor. I had to take it apart to fix a valve issue a could of years ago and haven't put it back together yet. My whole point was for a pit instrument. If I put a screw flare on it, I think I could get it into a 24 X 17 x 4 briefcase.

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:32 pm

Quote from: hyperbolica on Dec 04, 2017, 11:12AMThe real reason for a double tenor is to avoid owning two horns and finding yourself in the situation where you might need either frequently. Carry two mouthpieces instead of two instruments.
When I was looking to upsize my medium bore, this is exactly why a double tenor appealed to me. I didn't have a large-bore OR a bass, and I had encountered scenarios when I wanted both.

Here's another (slightly embarrassing) thing that appealed to me about a double tenor, even though it probably isn't a reason for anyone else: Bass trombone seemed like this snobby elite fraternity that I didn't really want to be a part of.
("Bass trombone is an entirely different beast"; "I only play bass trombone"; "Doublers on tenor and bass trombone will never achieve real proficiency on both instruments"; etc. People don't say that kind of thing about small bores vs. large bores, or at not nearly as much anyway.)
I figured if I got a double tenor, I'd still be in my nice familiar tenor club, and I wouldn't have to worry about whatever weirdness was going on in the bass club.

P.S. I ended up getting a bass. I'm still not really part of the bass club. I'm OK with that. I just make it clear to my cohorts that I am a tenor player who happened to get my hands on a bass trombone. Nobody's complained yet.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:43 pm

Quote from: elmsandr on Dec 05, 2017, 12:50PMFor fun, I build a double valve Eb-Bb-G tenor. Kinda like a bass trombone and a tenor are both in Bb, this is an Eb tenor. I had to take it apart to fix a valve issue a could of years ago and haven't put it back together yet. My whole point was for a pit instrument. If I put a screw flare on it, I think I could get it into a 24 X 17 x 4 briefcase.

Cheers,
Andy

Have you ever posted pictures of that? I'd love to see that!

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:39 pm

Ah, LowrB, glad to hear somebody else is in the same boat. I make sure I never take a bass to a gig where a real bass player is going to be. I just don't want that head to head comparison. All the tenor players always say what a great job I do on bass, but that's because they are just glad they don't have to do it.

I've been trying to learn bass bone for two years while still holding onto tenor. Only recently did i figure out why I'm just not grasping it: its all 3rd trombone and bass lines. Even in trombone quartet where you can get a melody line.

All the bass bone players around here are tenor doublers. When asked if they want to join a quartet, each of them said "yeah, as long as I don't get stuck on bass". The reason I started doubling was because we couldn't find a bass player and one of the other players had a 36b and the two remaining started showing up with straight horns.

We all ought to just play euphonium: they can play high or low without a whole new set of equipment, and nobody claims to have the same range as a tuba or complain about positions past 4th.

I used to think that bass bone was for guys comfortable on 3rd parts, or couldn't hack high or fast notes. But then I heard guys like Max Siegel and Ben van Dijk play. Bass bone is so much more difficult to be melodious on. I'll never get to that level on bass. So I continue just playing bass parts and trying to avoid comparisons with real bass players.

ttf_modelerdc · Post by **ttf_modelerdc** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:08 pm

Instruments are only a tool to make music. What music would you make on a double valve tenor? as a small bass trombone or a tenor that wants to be a bass trombone I'm not enthusiastic. Regular bass trombones are available that are better for playing bass trombone parts. Need a bright sounding bass bone, my preference is a Conn 62HG, but other vintage horns, Conn, Olds, Holtons are good. You can probably buy a good used double trigger for about what it would cost you to add a second valve to a tenor. Want a smaller bass bone? King 5B, Conn 88HK, Olds and Holton Tr183 with 9 inch bells, most of these don't have a second trigger, although it would useful to be able to add one.

For a tenor trombone player who may play music with low Cs and Bs it would be useful for some things. Cello suites, bassoon music, I'm practicing some Rode transcriptions of violin etudes that the upper range looks challenging for a tenor trombone, but goes down to the pedals, with a lot of low Cs and Bs just above the pedal B flat. The ideal horn for this would be a large tenor with two valves but I'm doing it on a regular bass. Dempster, as mentioned above had a Minnick I believed 88H with in dependent F and G valves. He played a lot of contemporary music, some of it having a lot of low notes whether intended for bass trombone or not.

We forget that the long tuning slide on the classical 88H (and 72H too) was so that it could be tuned to flat E so that low B could be played in tune, if needed! A real advantage of this traditional but not open wrap! But most of us don't want to give up our F valve for low c and b. Since most modern instruments don't have a F attachment slide even long enough to get the low B in tune, even though they could, like the 88H, be made that way, strongly suggests that for a tenor trombone player low b is not that important.

What it comes down to is how much will it cost you to have a double trigger tenor made, and will you actually use it enough to offset the expense? And will it become your main axe, or will you keep a (lighter) second bell around with only one trigger or even no trigger around for when you don't need two valves? Since we rarely see double trigger tenors, for most players the extra expense and weight doesn't offset the occasional benefits. But if you can use it and can afford it go for it. Adding a second valve can effect the sound and response of the instrument, so the installation should be done by a top quality technician. Don't cut corners here! Let us know how it works out

ttf_modelerdc · Post by **ttf_modelerdc** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:12 pm

One of my fantasy builds is a Conn 88HK Bell section, King Duo Gravis valves (split triggers of course) and a Shires or Edwards duo bore 547-562 slide. Would be interesting but I know it would never replace my regular bass and tenor. While we're on the subject of fantasy I've always wanted a duo gravis with Greenhoe bass valves and removable leadpipes!

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:45 pm

I am sorry... but if you want to play bass parts, just use a bass trombone. They are the right tool for that. They sound great.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:18 am

Again, I feel like there are very few reasons to use a double valve tenor.

Bass should be played on bass (even a little Olds GR model!).

Almost every tenor part in existence can, and probably should be, played on a normal boring tenor.

EVERY once in a while, there's a contemporary solo or orchestral work that needs a low B or C a little too often or loud to play a normal tenor. And not a good piece for bass. Then I would think about a double valve tenor.

For instance, I recently saw LA Phil in concert. They opened with a new violin concerto. The principal trombonist had to play his part on a Yamaha 830 bass because the part had a low B. It also had high Ds, which made it a little more work than it would have been on a double valve tenor.

I have played a John Adams piece on tenor trombone that had many low Cs. I could pull to E pull to play them, but a double valve tenor wouldn't have been out of place.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:34 am

Burgerbob, thats more of my train of thought.

I suppose it begs the question... Would it hurt to have the second valve be dependent and put the horn in, say, Eb or D with both triggers depressed, giving essentially a (sharp?) pedal Bb or A in 7th position instead (thereby keeping good sounding fully chromatic low range into the pedals while still saving in tuning and not being a too-difficult tuning system to learn, albeit at the loss of some of the ease of slide movement down there)...

idk. Im still not fully convinced on the double trigger. Guess Im starting to get stuck in my ways

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:59 am

Thete"s a problem with the "play bass on bass" pedantry. What is bass? Is it one piece with one note? Is it that tubby sound? Do you have to carry two horns for that one note? A lot of big band 4th parts can be played on a bone without valves.

To me bass is more about the sound than the notes. A single trigger bass has the same exact range as a tenor, it is just engineered to sound better in the low range. A double trigger can only technically play a M3 lower than a tenor, and those are notes rarely used. So its really about the sound more than the notes.

I recently had an Eb slide made for my 70h. You lose common trigger notes like C and B on the staff, but you gain the entire range of a double. Or how about that Bartok bass at Brass Ark? Thats clever.

Having owned a double trigger tenor, and the Holton 159, which is pretty close to Modelerdc's ideal build, I'd use those horns for 4th in a big band, 3rd in a community orchestra. In a setting like trombone quartet, I actually go with a real bass primarily for the added texture, but also because there's a wider range of writing in our book, and the added facility under the staff is useful.

ttf_Whitbey · Post by **ttf_Whitbey** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:47 am

I have an Ab valve on my small bore. It is the same as a first valve. I can play the fast licks all day with it. Just an extension of alternate positions. I can also play low Eb and D with it.

A tenor with an F and a trill would be nice. Trills would be useful and with both valves low C might be easier, maybe low B

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:51 am

Quote from: Matt K on Dec 05, 2017, 05:43PMHave you ever posted pictures of that? I'd love to see that!
In the gallery...

New valves will feature a more standard open wrap for Bb valve, this time on the first valve and the G valve will come forward with the tuning slide to stay compact. All I have to do is trim the Bb tuning slide and put it all together. Been sitting on the bench in the garage for a year or more like that, however.

Played a little squirrely, as expected, but well enough for me to do a pit show of the youth version of once upon a mattress.

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:02 am

Quote from: Whitbey on Dec 06, 2017, 06:47AMA tenor with an F and a trill would be nice. Trills would be useful and with both valves low C might be easier, maybe low B

I don't get the idea of a trill valve (A/Ab). It sort of kills what makes trills sound unique on a trombone. The F attachment by itself makes almost any mid range trill and higher possible, and also keeps the unique sound of a lip trill intact.

The Kissbone did solve the low C/B problem by adding a quick slide into the return crook on the F attachment. Kind of like a Bartok valve, you can throw it out for Bs and Cs, and quickly close it to be back in normal tuning.

ttf_stanzabone · Post by **ttf_stanzabone** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:23 am

Quote from: modelerdc on Dec 05, 2017, 09:08PM Dempster, as mentioned above had a Minnick I believed 88H with in dependent F and G valves. He played a lot of contemporary music, some of it having a lot of low notes whether intended for bass trombone or not.
Some of the pieces that Stuart Dempster may have played or commissioned from composers may have also included partial disassembly of the instrument; possibly taking off the trigger tuning slide to make some "alternative" noises. Having a second trigger allows for such techniques while still keeping your other trigger available for conventional playing. (See also the John Cage trombone solo, which at times requires the player to take off the hand slide & play it by itself, etc., etc.)

ttf_Stan · Post by **ttf_Stan** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:04 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Dec 06, 2017, 12:18AMAgain, I feel like there are very few reasons to use a double valve tenor.

Bass should be played on bass (even a little Olds GR model!).

Almost every tenor part in existence can, and probably should be, played on a normal boring tenor.

EVERY once in a while, there's a contemporary solo or orchestral work that needs a low B or C a little too often or loud to play a normal tenor. And not a good piece for bass. Then I would think about a double valve tenor.

For instance, I recently saw LA Phil in concert. They opened with a new violin concerto. The principal trombonist had to play his part on a Yamaha 830 bass because the part had a low B. It also had high Ds, which made it a little more work than it would have been on a double valve tenor.

I have played a John Adams piece on tenor trombone that had many low Cs. I could pull to E pull to play them, but a double valve tenor wouldn't have been out of place.

Is this not a problem caused by the radical growth in side of the Bb/F tenor? As tenors have creeped towards basses in size since the 90s, have they overtaken the bass in composers/arrangers minds? Why in the world would good arrangers write a low C or B for a tenor trombone, unless they're conceiving the sound as some kind of generic "trombone" that's not really a tenor, not really a bass, and can play any note within about 5 octaves?

I think this is an interesting question. Bb clarinets aren't often asked to do the work of a bass clarinet.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:15 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 06, 2017, 07:02AMI don't get the idea of a trill valve (A/Ab). It sort of kills what makes trills sound unique on a trombone. ...

If you look at "solo" trombones of the early 20th Century, many were made with trill valves (1/2 step). The lip trill used on a trombone is actually the anomaly since nearly every other instrument has a capability of 1/2 step or whole step trill on any note.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:19 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Dec 06, 2017, 11:15AMIf you look at "solo" trombones of the early 20th Century, many were made with trill valves (1/2 step). The lip trill used on a trombone is actually the anomaly since nearly every other instrument has a capability of 1/2 step or whole step trill on any note.

Frescobaldi and Castillo had the trombone pulling off all kinds of crazy trills ages before anyone knew what a valve was. I imagine that the first trill played on a brass was done on a trombone.

ttf_pete edwards · Post by **ttf_pete edwards** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:31 am

Andy,
Your pic of your Eb/Bb/F horn made me do a double take
That is very close to what I have done to my Schiller bass, the "open" horn is in C, 1st valve in F, 2nd valve is Bb ascending, meaning without pushing the finger lever, the horn is Bb, push it & the horn raises to C. Can be used as a trill valve too.
It was inspired by the Yamaha 350C, but with an F-attachment, in bass bore size. Slide has only 6 positions, but it is long enough for a good Db in the F valve. It is therefore fully chromatic down to pedal Db.
I LOVE it, play it all the time in big bands and when a smaller-ish bass sound is called for in orchestra.
The pedal C & B really speak easy in 1st & short 2nd, took a little getting used to, but now I find them much preferable to blowing thru 16ft of tubing & 2 valves to get C & B.
And it weighs almost a pound less than my "big" bass (a real back-saver on 4 hour gigs)

Ill post a pic if I can figure it out

this could easily be done with a tenor, probably be a very useful instrument. Especially for pit gigs with no slide room or room behind you.

Pete

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:53 am

Quote from: Stan on Dec 06, 2017, 11:04AMWhy in the world would good arrangers write a low C or B for a tenor trombone, unless they're conceiving the sound as some kind of generic "trombone" that's not really a tenor, not really a bass, and can play any note within about 5 octaves?You said "good arrangers". The simple fact of life is that, from time to time, all of us have to play stuff that was not put together by "good" arrangers. There's also those composers/arrangers who just refuse to let the traditional limitations of an instrument stand in the way of their artistic vision.

QuoteBb clarinets aren't often asked to do the work of a bass clarinet.Bb clarinets are pitched an octave above the bass clarinet. Tenor trombones are pitched the same as (modern) bass trombones; I think there are some people who don't quite get the concept that the range of a straight tenor trombone is discontinuous. "Whaddaya mean it can play A1 but not C2? A1 is lower than C2!"

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 06, 2017, 11:19AMFrescobaldi and Castillo had the trombone pulling off all kinds of crazy trills ages before anyone knew what a valve was. I imagine that the first trill played on a brass was done on a trombone.Either that or a natural horn.

ttf_John Beers Jr. · Post by **ttf_John Beers Jr.** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:26 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Dec 06, 2017, 11:53AMBb clarinets are pitched an octave above the bass clarinet. Tenor trombones are pitched the same as (modern) bass trombones; I think there are some people who don't quite get the concept that the range of a straight tenor trombone is discontinuous. "Whaddaya mean it can play A1 but not C2? A1 is lower than C2!"

Yeah, there are occasions where there are only two parts in orchestra, particular insofar as pops concert type stuff (show tunes) are concerned.

And that second bone part can be anywhere in either the bass or tenor range. I could easily imagine a circumstance in that sort of show where a double-valved tenor might prove handy, especially if you've only got two trombones for the entire concert, rather than trying to switch instruments on the fly.

That being said, I'm not in a huge hurry to drop $3k on a special valve section just for a subset of a subset of concerts in one type of ensemble, but it's not the worst idea in the world.