Soprano Trombone Project

[ThePousane]

I came across an interesting project started by Torbjörn Hultmark. More information is can be found below

video:

website: http://www.hultmark.me/torbjornsopranot.html

I think the soprano trombone has potential, and I am curious to see how far it can go. There are definitely many obstacles in the way including the lack of soprano players and lack of written music, but I wonder how things will turn out.

[LeTromboniste]

That's a cool project, especially pushing for new music being composed for it. Soprano trombones parts should definitely be more common in new trombone choir pieces, I think. I can see that it wouldn't be too hard, in a college/university context, to recruit enthusiastic trumpet players and give them the opportunity and a reason to learn slide technique, which then would increase the number of capable players and encourage more music being written.

I hope they stick to the new music side of the project and don't try too hard to sell the idea that the instrument was used a lot historically. There is really no indication that it had the kind of "long and distinguished history" that is suggested on the website. They don't go to great length about it at least, but what they do mention are myths that have been debunked for 20 years now (for example, that it might date back to the 15th century, and that Glück and Mozart wrote parts for it).

[Burgerbob]

I watched some, but Torbjorn needs to work on the video editing a bit. Very hard to watch!

[BGuttman]

Probably the biggest historical use of soprano trombone is in the Moravian Trombone Choir. Probably dates to no further back than the 18th Century.

You can possibly claim the Slide Cornett of the 16th Century, but it's a single tube and really a dead evolutionary end.

[harrisonreed]

I watched some, but Torbjorn needs to work on the video editing a bit. Very hard to watch!

The audio was very out of sync with his performances.

That said, he has possibly the best classical sound I've heard out of a slide trumpet.

He's a bit egotistical, trying to lay claim to an instrument that is already played well by many classical trumpeters, Wycliffe Gordon, and in a way by Maynard Ferguson. There are several Indian and Middle Eastern performers using Maynard's setup for microtonal music.

For someone who claims so much historical knowledge, he's left out too much of his contemporary competition! Honestly the "firebird" that has 7 positions is a flat out more useful instrument.

[LeTromboniste]

To be fair, I don't think he's claiming to be the only one playing it. But certainly it is a fairly rare instrument, especially on the classical scene (it is of course more common in jazz, but still not THAT common).

I also think he would probably argue that the Firebird is not a soprano trombone.

Probably the biggest historical use of soprano trombone is in the Moravian Trombone Choir. Probably dates to no further back than the 18th Century.

Yes, as far as we can tell for now, the Moravian trombone tradition is where soprano trombones likely saw the most use. We also know it was part of the arsenal of the Stadtpfeiffer in some towns of Germany and Northern Europe in the 18th century, but it's unclear how widespread it was, and how much they used it (Stadtpfeiffer were multi-instrumentalists). Not a lot of music survives that has specific soprano trombone parts. It dates back to the second half of the 17th century (oldest surviving instrument is 1677, first document mentioning it is around the same time). It certainly wasn't part of the trombone group during the Renaissance and early baroque, nor in the Austrian high baroque tradition.

You can possibly claim the Slide Cornett of the 16th Century, but it's a single tube and really a dead evolutionary end.

The cornett is a wooden instrument with finger-holes. You probably mean the slide trumpet, which is more associated with the 15th century. I'm not sure I would characterise it as an evolutionary dead-end, since it was in all likelihood the direct ancestor of the trombone (and thus did precisely that, evolve) and also existed in parallel with trombones for about 3 centuries. But it's in any case usually not a soprano trombone-sized instrument. Roughly the length of an alto trombone. Originally probably played alto-ish parts, and by Bach's time was used mostly to play slow-moving chorale melodies (and although that is usually doubling the soprano voices, they're usually not super high parts and the alto voices and trombone frequently cross above it).

[BGuttman]

Thanks for the correction, Maximilien.

[harrisonreed]

Maynard's had a full 7 positions, via a telescoping inner slide. Soprano superbone?

[leafylief]

I think they're pretty cool instruments. I'd honestly love to buy one myself. It would help me work on my higher note embouchure and be able to play a nice cutting instrument without having to really learn anything new

[robcat2075]

The soprano trombone seem to be an interesting instrument without an interesting need.

The "Vocal shafts" were highly unimpressive. Something more compelling than that will be needed to inspire more soprano trombone playing.

[robcat2075]

It just came back to me... I have played in an ensemble that had a soprano trombone!

I got asked to play in a trombone ensemble for Reformation Sunday at a Lutheran church I had occasionally attended. The leader of the group I knew as a bass trombone player but he had a soprano with him and he was going to play it in some STB arrangements of hymns.

The rehearsal was... OK... but at the Sunday morning church service he was rather less on top of it. About every fifth articulation was noticeably late or missed in some way and it threw the rest of us off.

It was such a disaster and disappointment that I've never played in public since then. That was 20 years ago.

So, if any of you are thinking of taking up the soprano trombone... be sure you can play it!

[JohnL]

I'm a little troubled by his emphasis on "big bore, big bell" and "dark".

And this:

the general character of the trumpet is soloistic, bright and brilliant whereas the trombone is richly dark, mournful and often used in a more subservient role as part of a vocal texture"

One the wonderful things about trombones, and tenor trombones in particular, is the diversity of sound one gets as one moves through the spectrum from the small-bore jazz horns (.500"-ish or even smaller) to the large bore (.547"-ish or even larger) symphony horns. There's no reason there can't be that same kind of diversity in soprano trombones - from the traditional "trumpet-size" soprano up to his much larger instrument (I'm tempted to call it a soprano bass trombone).

[Finetales]

This is dangerously close to a thread that belongs in the Instruments forum, but...

While the soprano trombone is certainly a niche instrument that would (and should) never be more than a double, I am 100% convinced that the entire reason that it has been pretty much ignored entirely in a world where you can buy a functional soprano trombone for $113 from Thomann, is that nobody bothers to use an actually suitable mouthpiece.

If you put a trumpet mouthpiece in a cheap Chinese soprano trombone (which is made with a trumpet bell), it's going to sound like a trumpet. Shocking! But that's as far as most people who mess with a soprano trombone get. To be fair, there actually is musical value in an instrument that sounds like a trumpet but can slide around like a trombone. But the soprano trombone can sound like a genuine member of the trombone family...in fact, even a standard Bb trumpet can sound like a soprano trombone. You just have to use a Bach 9AT alto trumpet mouthpiece. Not a Curry TF, not a Chasons hybrid mouthpiece, not a weird German flugelhorn mouthpiece. The 9AT is the secret sauce!

If an enterprising mouthpiece company would like to make a line of soprano trombone mouthpieces for those daft enough to buy one (a.k.a. me), start with the 9AT and go from there.

[JohnL]

If an enterprising mouthpiece company would like to make a line of soprano trombone mouthpieces for those daft enough to buy one (a.k.a. me), start with the 9AT and go from there.

Given that the Olds F-15 alto trombone leans more toward the trumpet size range, an Olds F Alto mouthpiece might also be a good place to start. I had Kanstul scan one a while back and make a couple duplicates, but when I asked Charles Hargett (then sales manager at Kanstul) about it, he said all of those files had been lost even before Kanstul shut down.

I can't see any company doing the development unless some third party was willing to foot a lot of the bill. As you pointed out, it's a niche instrument - significantly more so than alto trombone and I, at least, haven't seen much in the way of dedicated alto mouthpieces.

If you have a very good idea of what you want, you might want to see if John Cather is interested in making it. He already makes a very nice alto mouthpiece, along with some historical repro natural trumpet and cornetto mouthpieces.

[Ted]

This is dangerously close to a thread that belongs in the Instruments forum, but...

While the soprano trombone is certainly a niche instrument that would (and should) never be more than a double, I am 100% convinced that the entire reason that it has been pretty much ignored entirely in a world where you can buy a functional soprano trombone for $113 from Thomann, is that nobody bothers to use an actually suitable mouthpiece.

If you put a trumpet mouthpiece in a cheap Chinese soprano trombone (which is made with a trumpet bell), it's going to sound like a trumpet. Shocking! But that's as far as most people who mess with a soprano trombone get. To be fair, there actually is musical value in an instrument that sounds like a trumpet but can slide around like a trombone. But the soprano trombone can sound like a genuine member of the trombone family...in fact, even a standard Bb trumpet can sound like a soprano trombone. You just have to use a Bach 9AT alto trumpet mouthpiece. Not a Curry TF, not a Chasons hybrid mouthpiece, not a weird German flugelhorn mouthpiece. The 9AT is the secret sauce!

If an enterprising mouthpiece company would like to make a line of soprano trombone mouthpieces for those daft enough to buy one (a.k.a. me), start with the 9AT and go from there.

Nice, I wanted to bring up the Curry TF mouthpieces. As a former trumpet player, I own a Jupiter soprano. I used to play it with a normal trumpet mouthpiece, and with that it sound just like a trumpet. However, I also owned a old Yamaha doubles flugelhorn, with trumpet shank. With those mouthpieces the sound gets improved right away. I'm curious how it would sound with a 9AT, but I was thinking, maybe a mellohorn mouthpiece would be better, as it has the right shank?

kr,

[comebackplayer]

I have one of these, the Carolbrass one. A few thoughts and an aside:
1. The mouthpiece will slightly affect the sound, but it's still a pretty trumpety instrument. Wycliffe Gordon uses a special mouthpiece, but I think he still has to do a shallower piece and his playing really cuts (trumpet-like). I have tried a range of depths, and I actually like a lead mouthpiece better, because it zings and covers the range better. You're not going to get a deep, trombone-like sound on a very lightweight instrument that takes a trumpet shank.
2. The tuning is really hard. It's like going from a cello to a violin. It's so much easier to be in tune when you a bigger sweet spot to hit for intonation. Gordon does a lot of vibrato and shake type actions and I think this helps cover the pitchiness of the instrument.
3. Embouchure makes a big difference and you want solid chops on whatever mouthpiece you are playing.
4. I do think it's a cool instrument, but it's probably one that won't sound good with just occasional dabbling (how most people use it).

Comment: I know there's extensive debate on "slide trumpet" vs. "soprano trombone," but to me this instrument is really more trumpet-y. There's no good definition for what's a trumpet and what's a trombone where both "soprano trombones" and "marching trombones" are in the same family.

[Matt K]

Has anyone tried the Greg Black / Jim Nova artist series soprano one? I'm 2 hours away from the exclusive distributor for that piece; I've been tempted to go up and try it out on mine.

FWIW, Doug actually makes a really good shank. Mine is for an Alto sacbut for a "C" cup. Works better in tune even with a comically large rim (104N) than the Chansons imo. On an "A" cup it would probably be much closer to the ideal.

[hyperbolica]

Wycliffe certainly does it justice. But I think Hultmark had a point that the instrument kind of requires a trombone state of mind just because of the slide. Maynard got away with it, but he was Maynard. Whether it continues to be a novelty or starts to gain momentum like alto will most likely come from the pop side of things, since there's not much historical basis for it. In a way that's great, because a special niche can be carved out for it as something new, kind of like Michael Lake and the jazz alto trombone. If it's not developed, then the current niche of top voice of tbone choir is kind of where it ends. I really like what Wycliffe does with it, though, in his own style, mixing in a healthy dose of Louie Armstrong. It will never displace the conventional trumpet, but it might take its place along side flugel as a required double for that extra color. Valve instruments just can't get that tone bending /microtonal / smear that makes the trombone such a distinctive jazz instrument.

[BGuttman]

I've always thought it would be fun to have an all slide brass quintet with two soprano trombones on the top parts, alto trombone in the middle, tenor on 4th, and bass on 5th. Probably would be nice for the Pezel quintets, although the original instrumentation was two cornetts (wooden instruments with tone holes) and three trombones.

[Finetales]

Nice, I wanted to bring up the Curry TF mouthpieces. As a former trumpet player, I own a Jupiter soprano. I used to play it with a normal trumpet mouthpiece, and with that it sound just like a trumpet. However, I also owned a old Yamaha doubles flugelhorn, with trumpet shank. With those mouthpieces the sound gets improved right away. I'm curious how it would sound with a 9AT, but I was thinking, maybe a mellohorn mouthpiece would be better, as it has the right shank?

That's a good point actually, a marching mellophone mouthpiece might be a good fit. I haven't tried it myself but I do have a mello piece so it would be easy to try.

[JohnL]

...I was thinking, maybe a mellohorn mouthpiece would be better, as it has the right shank?

That would certainly open up a few more options, size-wise. Back offers several different sizes of mello mouthpiece. Alto (tenor) horn mouthpieces might also be worth investigating, particularly if you're wanting to go to the dark side, as they usually have a deep-V type cup. Denis Wick and Josef Klier come to mind, though there are undoubtedly others.

[HowardW]

I've always thought it would be fun to have an all slide brass quintet with two soprano trombones on the top parts, alto trombone in the middle, tenor on 4th, and bass on 5th. Probably would be nice for the Pezel quintets, although the original instrumentation was two cornetts (wooden instruments with tone holes) and three trombones.

Be careful what you wish for: the Norwegian author Joahnn Daniel Berlin wrote in 1744:

"The cornett ... is generally used in loud and splendid music, and in accompaniment or together with trombones; it is employed on the highest part when there is no soprano trombone. However, even in such a case, one still prefers the cornett to the soprano trombone because the cornett can be played gracefully."

Or to put it the other way around: The soprano trombone cannot be played gracefully.

Howard

[BGuttman]

I've always thought it would be fun to have an all slide brass quintet with two soprano trombones on the top parts, alto trombone in the middle, tenor on 4th, and bass on 5th. Probably would be nice for the Pezel quintets, although the original instrumentation was two cornetts (wooden instruments with tone holes) and three trombones.

Be careful what you wish for: the Norwegian author Joahnn Daniel Berlin wrote in 1744:

"The cornett ... is generally used in loud and splendid music, and in accompaniment or together with trombones; it is employed on the highest part when there is no soprano trombone. However, even in such a case, one still prefers the cornett to the soprano trombone because the cornett can be played gracefully."

Or to put it the other way around: The soprano trombone cannot be played gracefully.

Howard

Dunno, Howard. I heard some really graceful playing by Malcolm McNab on soprano trombone in my recording of the Downey Ensemble. I don't think Berlin gave his soprano trombones a chance. Although I appreciate the fluidity of a well-played Cornetto.

[Finetales]

That would certainly open up a few more options, size-wise. Back offers several different sizes of mello mouthpiece. Alto (tenor) horn mouthpieces might also be worth investigating, particularly if you're wanting to go to the dark side, as they usually have a deep-V type cup.

You have to be careful with the Bach mouthpieces, as their mellophone mouthpieces are for traditional circular mellophones rather than marching mellophones, so they have a cornet shank. I have a Bach 5 mello piece and it works in my cornets/mellophonium/ballad horn (I have a problem), but is too small for trumpet. They ALSO make an "alto horn/mellophone" mouthpiece with the trumpet shank. But for marching mello, the usual suspects are Hammond or a Benge/King Mello 6. A used Mello 6 might be the cheapest way to a decently appropriate mouthpiece.

I don't believe that the deep V cup of a Wick alto horn mouthpiece would be ideal. It's the equivalent of trying to use a big euphonium mouthpiece in a tenor trombone...usually not a stellar combination. For the same reason, I don't think Curry TF trumpet mouthpieces are the answer either. What you need is a larger diameter bowl cup, like the Bach 9AT. Now that you mentioned alto horn pieces though, an American-style alto horn mouthpiece (like the Bach) might work very well.

One thing I know for sure is that once I get a soprano trombone, I'll definitely have to collect as many of the different mouthpiece options as I can to do video comparisons!

[heldenbone]

Should you need an excuse to play your soprano, here is a good one. The LA Phil trombone ensemble did an album of Moravian music with Malcolm McNab playing a Miraphone soprano when needed. It included some sonatas from the Moravian archive by the "almost anonymous" Cruse. Nola Knouse Reed and Dave Blum at the archive kindly shared with me a copy of the water-soaked sheaf that Jeff Reynolds worked from to make an edition for the album. I made a clean engraving using Lilypond of the 1st three sonatas, which may be accessed below. An incomplete 4th sonata is in the sheaf, but the soprano part has never come to light. Happy soprano-ing.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing