Trombone and Euphonium chops

[hyperbolica]

I'm a tenor bone player, but play other things just to keep the interest going. When I'm in shape, I'm not bad on the tenor, but my wife actually likes the sound of the euphonium, so sometimes I play that.

My problem is that my chops seem to work fine on the trombone. Even if they don't, let's just say they do. But euphonium sometimes feels like I'm dragging a big sand bag. I've got no flexibility, everything takes a hard tongue attack to get it started, can't lip slur like I do on the trombone. Very wooden.

I'm playing a Wessex Festivo (4 comp on the front). I have a problem with low B (42) on the horn, but that might just be a leak in the comp circuit of the second valve. The rest of the horn sounds ok, aside from my inability to move around partials easily.

Is there really that much difference between euph and bone, or is there something wrong with the Festivo or something wrong with my chops?

[Doug Elliott]

That is not typical for euphonium. If anything it should be the opposite. I think it has a leak, or at least a leaky valve.

Or maybe something about it is just a bad design. Leadpipe too small? Mouthpiece not the right choice?

[timothy42b]

Or the way you hold it means you can't get your chops at the right angle to play efficiently.

Trombone is a lot easier to manipulate and get lined up. Euph is usually restricted by how you have to hold it and sometimes all you can do is move your head.

[Kdanielsen]

I’ve found that I can’t play the same mouthpiece on both tenor and euph. I need something deeper and more open. I agree, playing euph the partials feel “sticky,” like it’s harder to move around. I actually have quite a bit of experience playing euph and I find that I need to give myself time to adjust whenever i need it for a gig.

The Wick SM mouthpieces are pretty great for me. That’s always been my go to.

Low B on the staff shouldn’t be stuffy. Other than sharp, how’s it blow in 123? How’s Bb 14?

I’d like to get my hands on a festivo. I’ve always hated the ergonomic on normal euph. Playing a dolce now and played a yamaha 642 through conservatory.

[hyperbolica]

I’ve found that I can’t play the same mouthpiece on both tenor and euph. I need something deeper and more open. I agree, playing euph the partials feel “sticky,” like it’s harder to move around. I actually have quite a bit of experience playing euph and I find that I need to give myself time to adjust whenever i need it for a gig.

The Wick SM mouthpieces are pretty great for me. That’s always been my go to.

Low B on the staff shouldn’t be stuffy. Other than sharp, how’s it blow in 123? How’s Bb 14?

I’d like to get my hands on a festivo. I’ve always hated the ergonomic on normal euph. Playing a dolce now and played a yamaha 642 through conservatory.

123 is sharp but sounds ok. 14 is ok.

Yeah, I got rid of my Dolce and bought the Festivo because of the ergonomics. This is what I pick up when I just want to play but also want to relax. I can sit back in my recliner and play. Can't do that with a trombone.

Mouthpiece wise, it's a large shank, and I've used everything from my DE XT 104 G8 to a Schilke 59, Yamaha 60, VB 1.25G, Ferguson V and L, and a VB 2G. The 2G is the best all around, if you want to play a lot in the compensating range, the bigger the mouthpiece the better. I even got a Schilke 52e2, but the diameter wasn't big enough for what I'm used to (DE 104). Other than that, I don't have anything euph specific.

@timothy42b I've thought of that, and sometimes hold it sideways. Hasn't helped yet. I do play with the trombone sloping down a little, but I don't think angle of attack is a problem on the euph. It just feels like stiff chops. Like when you play really hard one day, and then take 2 days off, you come back and can't even get the lips to buzz. That's how euph feels to me. Although sometimes I can play the chops into submission, and they start working, but they're worn out by that point.

@Doug_Elliott Dunno. Maybe. I think the design is ok, and I'm pretty sure the compensating circuit has a leak in a place you can't get to it (behind the second valve in one of those short loops). The smaller mouthpieces do work better for flexibility, but a 104 g8 is the smallest large shank I have, and I don't think it fixes the problem.

I spend a couple days a week on it for about a year, so I should be accustomed to it by now.

[marccromme]

Funny. I only play euph sometimes a Wessex Dolce, i use it as travel tuba, or bass bone travel substitution. My experience is that it amazingly plays itself, very easy blow, and less work required than on a bass bone.

It has less resistance than a trombone, and slotting is less restrict, means you need a controlled embouchure to avoid loosing too much air. But it blows and sings by itself. You need to adjust to another tonal quality though.

If you force it to play bright, it will cost you, but accepting and loving the mellow tone makes it easy.

So, your challenge might be you tone color concept, maybe?

[Kdanielsen]

It does sound like a leak to me, but I’m not a tech. Does low E come out? I’d think that would be messed up as well (also low D and low B below the staff).

Of those mouthpieces I’m not surprised the 2g works the best. Euph is just stuffy down low...

[hyperbolica]

So, your challenge might be you tone color concept, maybe?

That's possible. At first I had trouble getting a range of volume on it. It would only play medium loud. I feel like I'm letting it do it's thing sound wise.

@kdanielsen If I have a big mouthpiece, the lower notes all sound good, right down to pedal C, although out of tune in that valve instrument sort of way.

I cleaned the instrument, and thought there might be something stuck in there. When I filled it with water and activated the 24 combo, there was a little trickle coming out from behind the valve. I couldn't really see the source, but it looked like a leak.

It shouldn't effect the rest of the instrument, would it?

[Doug Elliott]

Contact Wessex, that should be a warranty issue.

[BHolleyBrass]

It sounds like the gap is off between the end of the mouthpiece shank and the leadpipe (within the receiver). Measure the insertion on your go-to mouthpiece and then measure how far off that is from where the leadpipe starts inside the receiver. I installed an Adams variable gap receiver on my XO euph because the gap was what KHS deemed optimal for the mouthpiece that came with the horn; that's probably what Wessex does, too. From the Harrelson Trumpet page: "Most horns with wide gap tend to lock in on each note too easily so that slurring up or down to the next partial is difficult or sometimes nearly impossible."

[BHolleyBrass]

That Adams adjustable receiver assembly from Trent @ Austin Custom Brass was ~$100, btw. Trombonists usually don't have to deal with gap issues because our leadpipes almost always act as receivers.

[Burgerbob]

My first impression would be mouthpiece. Try an SM series, doesn't really matter which, in your rim size. Bass pieces will work on euph but are a lot of work. Tenor pieces are too small, as you've found. Euphonium really needs a euphonium mouthpiece.