What went wrong? King 3B slide seems ruined :-(

[berntd]

I have a 1970s? King 3B. My favourite instrument.
The slude worked really quite well, suoer smooth no noise.

The plating on the lower inner slide was worn through.
So I got the tube replaced.

Now I find the slide awful. It is noisy and scratchy.
My tech said he can't do any more and has no explanation.
He did say the new tube was 3mm/1/8" longer than the old one and he had to trim it at the top to match. He found that strange.

He did also to clean the slide chemically.

What can I do to get my poor slide smooth again?


I noticed the old tubes have a definite step at the stocking.
The new has a more gradual transition.

I just measured diameters on the stocking and my old worn tube is 0.025mm/8mils thicker than the new.
Old =13.71mm / 0.53976"
New = 13.68mm / 0.53858"

The part number on the new tube foam packing is K472.

I am gutted at the moment.

Regards
Bernt

[Doug Elliott]

Run your fingers over the old and new tubes and see if they are equally smooth. If the new one has any roughness to it, maybe it didn't get buffed. You can use Scotch-Bright 7448 Ultrafine pads safely on chrome to smooth it if it's not totally smooth. That's very close to what the factory uses on them.

More likely the slide needs to be checked for straight, parallel, and distance apart. If any of that is not perfect it will scrape. Find a better tech.

You might be able to isolate the problem by checking top and bottom tubes independently.

[berntd]

The new tube is smooth and shiny. Mirror finish.

Here is what it sounds like.
https://youtu.be/OAspDX2ktm8




The noise is made by the new tube side as far as I can tell.

I just noted that the new tube stocking is barrel shaped with thickest in the middle and thinnest at the stocking ends. The difference is almost 0.05mm.
My old one is just about parallel.
Some pictures attached.

[Elow]

How do each tubes sound individually when only using 1 outer slide. If they sound good separately then its probably an alignment issue. Are you using any lubrication?

[berntd]

The new tube alone sounds bad. Tech said alignment is good.
Also, this slide was 10 out of 10 before the tube change. Tech even said that.
I spent all afternoon cleaning it, polishing the inside with Bill Watrous method etc. Same

[Peacemate]

Is the new tube straight?

I also don't really understand how a good tech can accept making a slide worse? As a customer I would definitely not be happy with that kind of workmanship, especially on such a "routine" job. Replacing a slide tube shouldn't be too difficult according to me, but I'm not a tech.

[berntd]

Here is a better video, showing the combinations.

https://youtu.be/Y7CWwfTcIlk

[Fidbone]

Give it back and ask him to sort it out!!!!!

[Oslide]

.....
I just noted that the new tube stocking is barrel shaped with thickest in the middle and thinnest at the stocking ends. The difference is almost 0.05mm.
My old one is just about parallel.

When I had a couple of inner slides replaced three or four years ago(?), I learned that Bach had started at that time to produce inners with barrel shaped stockings. But King? - On the other hand, this would not make a slide sound scratchy. Perhaps the result of chemically cleaning the outers?

[Elow]

I would think lubrications would help that, what are you using?

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Don't take it back! The problem is with the tech. A good tech would never sent an instrument out like that. Some slides need a lot of TLC (tender loving care) to get everything working correctly.

Most likely your slide will be fine. You just need to sort through a few things and get it cleaned and aligned properly. Here are some things that you should try with a different tech.....

*Buff the inner slide with a chrome/white compound (just like Doug recommended). Some slides, particularly King inner slides, have a somewhat porous chrome plating on them when they are new. If you were to look at that plating under a powerful microscope, it would probably look like a toasted slide of bread. The buffing speeds up the "breaking in" process and creates a smoother, more silent slide.

*Since the new inner slide tube is probably still quite porous, it is actually creating scratches on the inside of the outer tubes. In other words, the problem could get worse before it gets better. The outer tube might need a flex hone or some other process to remove those new scratches.

*Have a good tech examine to see if the stocking area of the inner slide is bent. Even a couple thousandths of an inch can make a difference. There are many techs that miss this. If I have a slide that appears to be in perfect shape and alignment....yet, it still drags or makes noise, this is usually the problem. It takes a good eye and patient person to detect it and it also takes a little know-how to fix it. Please make sure that the stocking is straight....it makes a huge difference!

*After these things are addressed, play on the slide, clean it frequently and be patient! When you play on it, you are polishing the metal on the inside of the outer tubes. This polishing process takes longer on a nickel silver slide because the metal is harder. Thus, it will take longer for the scratchy noises to get softer and, eventually, vanish.

[Kingfan]

I have to wonder if your tech ordered a King inner slide tube, or a generic one that was the correct diameter and tried to make it fit. Many years ago Brook Mays overhauled my King 4B and had to replace one inner slide tube due to them bending it and the one they used looks like the one you got - the end was different. The slide action was as good as before, though.

[Bonearzt]

Don't take it back! The problem is with the tech. A good tech would never sent an instrument out like that. Some slides need a lot of TLC (tender loving care) to get everything working correctly.

Most likely your slide will be fine. You just need to sort through a few things and get it cleaned and aligned properly. Here are some things that you should try with a different tech.....

*Buff the inner slide with a chrome/white compound (just like Doug recommended). Some slides, particularly King inner slides, have a somewhat porous chrome plating on them when they are new. If you were to look at that plating under a powerful microscope, it would probably look like a toasted slide of bread. The buffing speeds up the "breaking in" process and creates a smoother, more silent slide.

*Since the new inner slide tube is probably still quite porous, it is actually creating scratches on the inside of the outer tubes. In other words, the problem could get worse before it gets better. The outer tube might need a flex hone or some other process to remove those new scratches.

*Have a good tech examine to see if the stocking area of the inner slide is bent. Even a couple thousandths of an inch can make a difference. There are many techs that miss this. If I have a slide that appears to be in perfect shape and alignment....yet, it still drags or makes noise, this is usually the problem. It takes a good eye and patient person to detect it and it also takes a little know-how to fix it. Please make sure that the stocking is straight....it makes a huge difference!

*After these things are addressed, play on the slide, clean it frequently and be patient! When you play on it, you are polishing the metal on the inside of the outer tubes. This polishing process takes longer on a nickel silver slide because the metal is harder. Thus, it will take longer for the scratchy noises to get softer and, eventually, vanish.

A rebuilt slide should work PERFECTLY from the shop or factory!! Little to no "break-in" should be needed!

I seriously doubt the customer will have access to the buffing materials and tools we have.

DEFINITELY a problem to be address by the "tech"!!!

Bernt, Get your money back and find a new tech, or bite the bullet and send it to one of us here in the US!!
Sorry you have such a problem on your hands!!

[hyperbolica]

I have a 1970s? King 3B. My favourite instrument.
The slude worked really quite well, suoer smooth no noise.

The plating on the lower inner slide was worn through.
So I got the tube replaced.

It sounds to me like the slide was perfect, the only problem was some chrome wear-thru, which - because the slide was otherwise perfect - was just a cosmetic OCD sort of issue.

I would have left the slide alone. A lot of slides play great on a little wear. If it ain't broke don't fix it. A wiser tech would have refused the work because they didn't stand any chance of making it better.

What went wrong? You had work done that didn't need to be done, and lost the brass repair roulette spin.

[Bach5G]

Jeez. You’re adding insult to injury Hyperb.

OP: You’re going to have to send it to another tech. There are several on this forum who you might consider. Eric Edwards, Benn Hansson, Brad Close all come to mind off the top of my head. Partch in Toronto. I see you’re in Sydney. Maybe someone - Matthew Walker? - has a recommendation for a tech closer to home.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Oh yes! Sorry I didn't make it clear....all the things that I recommended should definitely be done by a qualified tech. I think the owner should a good idea of what to say to the tech when dropping off the horn. It's just like when I drop my car off at the mechanic and say "The suspension doesn't feel right. Can you check the shock absorbers and struts?"

[Peacemate]

I have a 1970s? King 3B. My favourite instrument.
The slude worked really quite well, suoer smooth no noise.

The plating on the lower inner slide was worn through.
So I got the tube replaced.

It sounds to me like the slide was perfect, the only problem was some chrome wear-thru, which - because the slide was otherwise perfect - was just a cosmetic OCD sort of issue.

I would have left the slide alone. A lot of slides play great on a little wear. If it ain't broke don't fix it. A wiser tech would have refused the work because they didn't stand any chance of making it better.

What went wrong? You had work done that didn't need to be done, and lost the brass repair roulette spin.

The sounds that slide makes in the video are horrible. I have a 42 slide with visible chrome loss on both tubes, even off the stocking in the MIDDLE of the slide. Even that doesn't sound as bad.

Replacing a slide tube isn't a lottery. It is NOT (IMO) acceptable for a "reputable repair tech" to let a slide go out the door with that noise, especially not when specifically paid to either make it better, or at least not significantly worse.

A wiser tech would have done the job better.

[CharlieB]

Hello again.
Ever get the smell out of the Yammie 354?

I have watched/listened to your video several times. The sound is like that of a crooked slide tube.
It's not unusual for new slide tubes to be crooked right out of the box.
The slide needs to go to a tech who has the tools and skills to deal with that problem.
Straightening the tube should not require removing it.

[brassmedic]

I have to wonder if your tech ordered a King inner slide tube, or a generic one that was the correct diameter and tried to make it fit. Many years ago Brook Mays overhauled my King 4B and had to replace one inner slide tube due to them bending it and the one they used looks like the one you got - the end was different. The slide action was as good as before, though.

King slide tubes do look different now. That is not in and of itself an indication that it's the wrong part. The less pronounced lip where the stockings begin, and the barrel-shaped stockings are actually an improvement over the old design. Remember that King, Conn, Bach, and Holton are all made by the same company now. They are applying the improvements to all the slides they make.

I already posted in Bernt's facebook thread, so I'm not going into detail here, but I think there's a big possibility this problem is linked to the chem cleaning of the outer tubes, not the new inner tubes.

[Doug Elliott]

Freshly drawn tubing needs to be straightened several times over a period of weeks or months because the metal keeps changing and bending back toward it's "memory." Eventually it stays straight but may still continue to bend back in the long run - I have one like that.

When you buy a tube you don't know it's history. It needs to be straightened, maybe more than once, or at least verified to be straight, and maybe your tech didn't know that or didn't do it. And that includes the stocking, which is often not concentricly straight with the rest of the tube. That's why wear usually happens on one side at the end.

This is one of the reasons cheap horns are cheap, because they don't spend the extra time to do it right. Doing things right does take a lot of time.

Barrel shaped stockings are the norm these days, they run smoother than the old style. And maybe that makes stocking straightness a little less important.

[berntd]

I will check the straighness of the new tube with a steel ruler.

@brassmedic
I hear you about the chem cleaning.
I do not know why he did that as tjere was no need. I have a hunch that he did it after the fact, hoping to fix the problem. The slide now produces black on a cloth after just a few minutes of use.

[Doubler]

I'll pile on here by saying that a tech whose day job involves sweeping the floors in a lawnmower repair shop shouldn't be charging customers of his hobby for substandard work.

[harrisonreed]

Jeez. You’re adding insult to injury Hyperb.

[Bach5G]

Jeez. You’re adding insult to injury Hyperb.

“I would have left the slide alone. A lot of slides play great on a little wear. If it ain't broke don't fix it. ...

What went wrong? You had work done that didn't need to be done, and lost the brass repair roulette spin.”

Why blame Berndt for wanting to get his side fixed Harrison?

[harrisonreed]

“I would have left the slide alone. A lot of slides play great on a little wear. If it ain't broke don't fix it. ...

What went wrong? You had work done that didn't need to be done, and lost the brass repair roulette spin.”

Why blame Berndt for wanting to get his side fixed Harrison?

Similar to blaming Texans for freezing to death because of how they voted? Sorry. I'm instigating. I'm being bad here.

I don't think hyperbolica was too out of line, as I'm sure the OP had thought the exact same thing at some point.

[Kingfan]

King slide tubes do look different now. That is not in and of itself an indication that it's the wrong part. The less pronounced lip where the stockings begin, and the barrel-shaped stockings are actually an improvement over the old design. Remember that King, Conn, Bach, and Holton are all made by the same company now. They are applying the improvements to all the slides they make.

I already posted in Bernt's facebook thread, so I'm not going into detail here, but I think there's a big possibility this problem is linked to the chem cleaning of the outer tubes, not the new inner tubes.

Many years ago meant sometime in the early to mid '80s. UMI bought King in 83.

[Bach5G]

“Similar to blaming Texans for freezing to death because of how they voted? Sorry. I'm instigating. I'm being bad here”.

Ok. Touché. Point taken.

(Although I wasn’t blaming frozen and thirsty Texans but rather the politicians who were warned 10 years ago about problems with the grid in the event of cold weather).

[greenbean]

... but I think there's a big possibility this problem is linked to the chem cleaning of the outer tubes, not the new inner tubes.

But both outer tubes run smoothly with the OLD inner. Berntd told us that out of the 4 inner-outer tube combinations, only the new inner causes the noise...

@Berntd: The problem is your tech. An experienced slide person will straighten the tube, if needed, and then align it as they solder it back in place.

[tbonesullivan]

WOW, the TOP outer slide on the new tube sounds the worst out of all. Hopefully something can be done, as that definitely shouldn't have happened. Also, the tech should definitely be able to tell what got screwed up. If they can't, they shouldn't be advertising slide work as something they do.

[CharlieB]

I will check the straighness of the new tube with a steel ruler.

Probably won't have the needed accuracy.
A qualified slide tech will roll the slide tube on a dead-flat machined surface and look for daylight between the tube and the surface. If there is any daylight, he will bend the tube until there is less than 0.001" of daylight showing. He will use hand pressure, mandrels, burnishers and other tools to achieve that accuracy. It is a tactile skill that is acquired through practice, and it is as much art as science. Not all "instrument repair shops" have this capability. A slide tube can easily be ruined in the wrong hands.
This procedure should have been performed on the new tube before it was installed on your slide, but all is not lost.
It can be performed without disassembling the slide. Following that, the technician needs to perform a complete alignment check on the slide to make sure that the last guy reassembled the slide with the new tube in proper alignment with the other three tubes. $$$$ required.
"The bitterness of poor performance lingers long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." Ben Franklin.

[TheConnsequence]

Check out the very end and see if there are any burrs.

New tubes should be fine but if he cut the end, he may have made it slightly oval or left burrs. Check to see if oval with calipers.

[Mamaposaune]

The new tube alone sounds bad. Tech said alignment is good.
Also, this slide was 10 out of 10 before the tube change. Tech even said that.
I spent all afternoon cleaning it, polishing the inside with Bill Watrous method etc. Same

I'd love to hear an update from berntd on this.
Since the tech did a chem clean and you were still getting a lot of black gunk out with each cleaning, did the slide eventually improve?

[jpadron8819]

I recently purchased a 3b and I'm having the exact same problem. I've taken my slide to get aligned twice thinking that's the problem or search for dents and no luck. I have yet to buff the inner slide as mentioned earlier. I totally get the feeling of having a brand new horn expecting the slide to feel like silk, but instead have it noisy especially between 1st and 2nd position.

[greenbean]

I recently purchased a 3b and I'm having the exact same problem. I've taken my slide to get aligned twice thinking that's the problem or search for dents and no luck. I have yet to buff the inner slide as mentioned earlier. I totally get the feeling of having a brand new horn expecting the slide to feel like silk, but instead have it noisy especially between 1st and 2nd position.

Return it. It is under warranty if it is a new horn, right?

[berntd]

Ok, sorry everyone, here is an update.

My tech has contacted e since saying he found another NOS King tube in his older stock and he would replace it with that and start again. I have not gone for that yet as he is just way far from here and I am super weary, show knows what goes wrong next.

In the meantime, I have polished the inside of the outer slide and the outside of the new with Autosol metal polish on a rod and with a rag. I did that for some time and it has improved the slide a lot. It is playable without me getting upset all the time.

It now still has a clunking in the slide as if metal to metal clunks together when moving the slide back and forth. Some of my other horns do that too.

I played it a lot and noticed that the new slide tube already has slight visible spots on it where the gloss is becoming less shiny.

I have since stopped using the instrument for now and currently use an old Olds Special which has none of those issues and is smooth as can be.

Regards
berntd

[berntd]

Hello:
UPDATE on this and more input needed from the forum please:

After COVID lockdowns, I finally (!) managed to get my King back to the shop that fitted the tube.

The conclusion is that it is not the new inner tube doing it but the outer tube(s). Apparently there are spots of rot in the outer tube that are rough and visible with a camera. The more they get polished, the more they become unsettled and it is not helping the noise.

The suggestion is to play as is and hope the spots will eventually saturate with lubricant or to replace the outer tubes.

Does that make sense and can that be the cause of the noise in the slide? Should I go for the new tubes?

Best regards
berntd

[OneTon]

Is this a nickel silver outer slide?

[berntd]

Yes. Nickel silver.

[Joohank]

Nickel doesn’t red rot like brass does. The ”play it and hope it gets better” sounds like the tech can’t fix it and doesn’t want to admit it. There could be calcium composites in the outer slides that should not be there but the old inner works perfect. The problem is still the new inner.

I would never let that slide go out from my shop and i am not a slide specialist. The problem isn’t in the slide, it’s the tech. It takes time to become a good brass tech. And even more time to be a good slide tech. And being the first doesn’t automatically make you the second.

[berntd]

I went there today and had a look. It is a lot better now but not great.
Ohh, the old inner is also noisy but not very audible as it seems the bell side amplofies the noise a lot.
Without the bell fitted, there seems to be no audible noise from the new slide either.

We had a look with his camera and there are bloom like spots in the outer tubes that appear like white craters. He reckons it we cut that open, we would be able to scrape white powder out of those craters.
They are rather deep and not removable by polishing.

He did say that this his a result of many years of corrosion but was possibly aggrevated by the chemical clean removing a layer of old lubricant that had formed on it.

He is offering new outer tubes at material cost.
My choice, Dunno.

The new tubes have no laquor.

Should I go for it?

[OneTon]

I never have had any nickel silver slides get red rot. Years ago two different slides may have gotten crunchy from not being used. A tech was able to polish the nickel silver slide out. The brass slide was eventually replaced by a new old stock slide. My experience elsewhere is that the nickel silver would not be immune to corrosion other than red rot.

My LT6 and Duo-Gravis are both pretty ugly horns. The LT6 looks like Dr. Frankenstein got ahold of it. It is the best slide that I have. I used it at my last gig.

As a consumer, I have been there got the t-shirt with fixing a slide that was not broken and made it worse. I also have lived overseas. It is not unreasonable to expect that the new outer slides would fix the problem. From a risk management standpoint, it may make sense to take the offer. If the problem isn’t cleared up with new inners and outers, then some other tech, either there or in the US may make sense. On the other hand, if you are fed up and want to take it somewhere else, for polishing or whatever, that is a choice.

It is your decision. Nobody can make it for you. It is not easy.

PS: When a near empty bottle berped, I inadvertently put way more Yamaha Lubricant than normal on a 697 Slide that was hanging up so badly that I thought it was getting red rot. It lasted more than three weeks. Subsequent polishing did not initially make the slide feel better.

I prefer repeatable processes promoted by materials and lubricants being within spec. It is counter intuitive, but you could try that or Trombotine. If the lack of lacquer really upsets you, it is an option. My father had gotten away with stuff like that all my life.

[CharlieB]

I feel your frustration.
You have been dealing with this problem for almost a year now.
Maybe it's time for a new approach ???
I'll post a link below to a nice video showing how to properly renovate an old slide.
We have several excellent techs here in the States that can perform this service properly.
Some of them post on this site regularly.
I'm not familiar with the techs Down Under, but maybe somebody reading this could recommend one in Australia.
Sometimes it's faster/easier/cheaper/better to just bite the bullet and do an overhaul instead of twiddling with
chasing what may well be multiple problems. This meticulous work isn't cheap. Around $400 U.S., but a perfect slide is a wonderful thing.
http://www.oberloh.com/SPL/spl1.htm

[OneTon]

I’ve used Oberloh when I lived in Everett. They are good folks.

[rickfaulknernyc]

I had a similar experience with my own 3B, same vintage. It had a small dent in the slide. My regular repair tech had a big backlog, so against my better judgement I gave it to a horn shop in midtown Manhattan. I figured it was a minor repair, what harm could there be?

Well, when I went to pick it up, at first I refused to believe it was even my slide. The inner tube was pitted and pockmarked everywhere, and was in MUCH worse playing shape than when I gave it to them. (There was also a hole in the brace, probably from a vise.). The tech insisted he'd done the best he could "given the shape it was in", refused to believe/admit that I hadn't brought it in in that condition.

Long story short, I begrudgingly paid them off and took it to my regular guy. He said that they'd probably rolled out the tube without cleaning it first, thus pockmarking it. Luckily he had a replacement tube and was also able to fix the brace, saving the horn.

Bottom line - 1) sometimes you need a second opinion. 2) don't entrust your slide to just anybody.

(BTW, that horn shop is no longer in business.)

[berntd]

Update:

He can't has been trying to get the new outer tubes since last November but cannot get them due to backorder and shipping issues from the US. (yes, Covid)
So now he said that he spent some more time on the slide and polished the inside with Brasso plus a very liberal coat of trombotine.
He reckons it is a lot better and I should come round to try it out.

I have not done that yet as it is a 3.5 hour round trip to that shop.
I am rather sceptical since I personally do not use trombitine. I found it makes my slide action feel a bit greasy.

I don't know.

Regards
Bernt

[sacfxdx]

the term "liberal coat" should not be used in the same sentence as "Trombotine". My experience with Trombone is less is better.

[berntd]

the term "liberal coat" should not be used in the same sentence as "Trombotine". My experience with Trombone is less is better.

He said he wanted the trombitine to fill and saturate the internal pitting and stay there. I am also skeptical.

[greenbean]

Bernt, if I were you...

I would ask for the slide back, including the old inners. Give it all to another tech. 3.5 hour drive? No, just ask him to ship it. Cut your losses and start over with a new tech - ask Matthew Walker for recommendations. Good luck and keep us posted!

[Posaunus]

the term "liberal coat" should not be used in the same sentence as "Trombotine". My experience with Trombone is less is better.

He said he wanted the trombitine to fill and saturate the internal pitting and stay there. I am also skeptical.

Be VERY skeptical. Trombotine is not a long-term / permanent "pit filler."

Time for a new tech.

[Pre59]

Update:

He can't has been trying to get the new outer tubes since last November but cannot get them due to backorder and shipping issues from the US. (yes, Covid)
So now he said that he spent some more time on the slide and polished the inside with Brasso plus a very liberal coat of trombotine.
He reckons it is a lot better and I should come round to try it out.

I have not done that yet as it is a 3.5 hour round trip to that shop.
I am rather sceptical since I personally do not use trombitine. I found it makes my slide action feel a bit greasy.

I don't know.

Regards
Bernt

I've found that "proofing" an outer slide that's been polished with Brasso, or any strong metal cleaner with a large dollop of Trombotine works well.
Keep wiping it off untill the inner is dry and then use your regular lube.