TromboneChat

So I'm seriously considering studying music in college and going pro. Of course I don't want to waste money and time on education if i'm not going to get any real return on the investment and now with covid, the future landscape of the performing arts industry is very unclear. I know that it's not a very lucrative industry and I'm frankly ok with that. But my question is, how good do you really have to be? For those who have gone down this path, do you have any regrets?

There are varying levels of "making it". You could join a military band. You have to be pretty good, but it's attainable. If you are looking to be an orchestral trombonist, the odds of getting in are pretty low, and you have to not only be a great player, but audition well, which is an additional bag of skills. There are also musicians who teach school, college, individual private lessons, play church gigs, weddings, parties, etc.... You can also do arranging, composing, producing, play clubs, studio recordings, become a recording engineer, conductor, music therapist... there are lots of jobs that have some connection to music that you might also enjoy

Most of this depends on the Corona virus threat going away.

And then there are a lot of people who play mostly for fun, occasionally for money, and do something else to be able to afford playing the kind of music they like.

There are tons of people like me. I went to New England Conservatory. Played in a Navy band for 4 years. And I've spent 30 years as an engineer, playing just what I want to play.

Part of the problem is when something you love becomes something you have to do, you stop loving it as much. That was true for me, any way. Some people who play for a living love what they do, and that's great. You should love what you do for a living, or life becomes tiresome. If what you want to do is count measures in the back of a big orchestra in NY or Chicago, you should probably look for a backup. Hundreds of people graduate every year wanting to do that, and only a fraction of a percent actually wind up doing it.

You have to be better than me (not hard, I hear some of my friends say)
Seriously, you have to get to be better than those people who will teach you in music college . Then you stand a chance.
Any regrets ? NONE.
Chris

There is no objective answer to this question.
There is no "test" you can take and then automatically get work.

What do you call "making it"? This is highly personal, and variable. Define that first before proceeding. Have goals. Talk to your private teacher about this (you have one, right?).

IMO, the best ruler is to judge yourself against the peers in your market. But how good you are on the instrument is only part of the equation.

In the free-lance world, my experience has been that quality of playing is only one criteria. You need to be on-time, prepared, easy to get along with, and lucky. Realize that most gigs needing a trombone player do not require Bill Watrous or Christian Lindberg. If you are an incredible player, but are a snob or otherwise difficult, you still will not get gigs. Assuming you have the basic skills that others in your area have, it comes down to connections.

If you want to play in a major orchestra, you need to be a top-top-flight technician. And (at least in the US) plan on years of auditioning, and likely being under-employed for a long time.

Regrets? No. I tried, did it for a few years and then left the field because I saw I was not going to be able to support myself and family.

If your motivation is simply to make a living, forget about it. Move on. By that I mean one should feel some love for making music first and foremost. If $$$ is your motivation, get into HVAC repair. Some of these tradespeople are pulling in 200K per year, because no one wants to go into the trades anymore.

Whatever path you choose, be optimistic. I have met very few stupid musicians. With almost no exceptions, anyone good enough to become a good player has the brains to do just about any other profession you could pick.

You have to be good enough to build and maintain a reputation for being able play whatever is put in front of you right away and for being reliable, cooperative, and personable. Simple, but far from easy. Also, as has been mentioned, have no illusions about making money at it.

All of the above. I have nothing to add.

JCBone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:57 am So I'm seriously considering studying music in college and going pro. Of course I don't want to waste money and time on education if i'm not going to get any real return on the investment...

A return on the investment is exceedingly unlikely. I'll note that music schools admit students, not because there is a need for so many musicians, but because the music schools need students to stay in business.

Even graduates from A-list schools often find the music dries up after graduation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/arts ... later.html

Last May, Mr. Alexander finished out of the running in yet another audition, for the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, and saw his finances on a precipice. So in what he called a heartbreaking moment, he sold his bassoon for $5,300 to pay credit card bills. "It was time," he said. "It got to the point where you're just tired of being poor." Now he lives in Phoenix and works as an assistant underwriter.

Although none of the musicians in that article are trombonists, it is a safe bet that the glut of trombonists on the market is greater than the glut of bassoonists.

I know that it's not a very lucrative industry...

Even calling it an "industry" is probably over-estimating its potential.

...and I'm frankly ok with that.

For a few years, maybe, but as you get older and see your peers advancing in their lives and having things like families, homes, a car that isn't broken down, basic financial security... that you don't have because the musician thing is not working out, that you don't have because you have a debt several times larger than what you make in a year.... you will not be OK with that.

My advice is, if you are going to college, major in something with better prospects. You can still take private lessons and play in ensembles... the stuff you are actually interested in.

Are you really itching to write papers on medieval monophony and "parody" masses? (spoiler:parody masses are not at all amusing)

If you are any good as a player, they will not stop teaching you or seating you in ensembles merely because you are not a music major.

Be good at playing, good hang, all those things, but most importantly- the right people need to know that you are. You don't get the calls if you don't have the connections.

you have to be really good, or good enough with a great personality and good people skills. i look freelancing in nyc in a certain way. let's assume that on a grade of 0-100 our alessis, wycliffe gordons and lindbergs and all are at a level of 100. I'd guess that everyone who makes a living freelancing or playing in nyc or another major market is at least an 80 or so at minimum.

now the interesting part to me is that there really is no difference in the freelance market between an 80 player and a 99 player. both can get the job done. so it comes down to personality, reliability, and connections. these numbers are meaningless, but just another way of phrasing what @doubler said.

for auditions it's a different story, and you basically have to get better than your teachers (as @fossil said) and have good audition chops and win the lottery as well. there's probably 1 player a year tops in any given graduation year in the US that can assure themselves they will win a full salaried orchestra job and be 95% or better correct.

It's not a good idea. That doesn't mean it can't be the right choice. But choosing to pigeonhole yourself into the musical education pipeline is not smart on paper, and this has been reinforced by conversations with my colleagues who have music performance degrees and were working musicians and tried to make a go of it or still are working musicians. None of these people are grammy winners but they are all really fine musicians who could hang in any ensemble. One person had $150k in debt to a conservatory. There is no reasonable mechanism to pay that off in acoustic music.

If you're ok with barely making ends meet while working outside your industry to pay just the interest on the loans you owe for music school, it might work out for you for a while.

So what I understand here is that it's certainly a very difficult field. Some make it but oftentimes it's just not worth the effort. I think I might want to atleast give it a go. The University I plan on attending is pretty cheap ($3.5k a year) and it has pretty well known teachers. I wouldn't dream of spending $100k just for a bachelors in a field that is so unstable. Iv'e also heard that military is a good way to get started so I'll definetly consider that.

JCBone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:25 pm So what I understand here is that it's certainly a very difficult field. Some make but oftentimes it's just not worth the effort. I think I might want to atleast give it a go. The University I plan on attending is pretty cheap ($3.5k a year) and it has pretty well known teachers. I wouldn't dream of spending $100k just for a bachelors in a field that is so unstable. Iv'e also heard that military is a good way to get started so I'll definetly consider that.

The military can be a good way to pay for school. Without a degree, at least for the Army, your career likely will not last longer than about 8 years. 90% of the people I know in military bands have a bachelor's or master's degree in music and already were working as music teachers or as straight up musicians in the civilian world. A degree is one of the biggest discriminators to getting promoted and nearly everyone has one, so those without a degree are often forced out once they hit their RCP (8-10 years depending on the ever changing policies).

Sounds like a long time but every few months it seems someone we know is in that exact situation and scrambling to figure out what to do.

Good luck!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:39 pm

JCBone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:25 pm So what I understand here is that it's certainly a very difficult field. Some make but oftentimes it's just not worth the effort. I think I might want to atleast give it a go. The University I plan on attending is pretty cheap ($3.5k a year) and it has pretty well known teachers. I wouldn't dream of spending $100k just for a bachelors in a field that is so unstable. Iv'e also heard that military is a good way to get started so I'll definetly consider that.

The military can be a good way to pay for school. Without a degree, at least for the Army, your career likely will not last longer than about 8 years. 90% of the people I know in military bands have a bachelor's or master's degree in music and already were working as music teachers or as straight up musicians in the civilian world. A degree is one of the biggest discriminators to getting promoted even though nearly everyone had one, so those without a degree are often forced out once they hit their RCP (8-10 years depending on the ever changing policies).

Good luck!

Well I'm planning on doing atleast a bachelors first. From my research, it seems that you can study while in the military.

PM me if you want specific info. I can help you out with any questions about US military bands.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:47 pm PM me if you want specific info. I can help you out with any questions about US military bands.

Ok. I still have a little while to go but this is definetely an option I'll consider.

Another possibility is a Reserve (National Guard) band. A lot of them have been decommissioned, but if one is near where you want to pursue a different career you can get the Military to help pay for additional education, play a bit (and make good friends), and still eat.

There is a pretty important question that hasn't been asked yet and that somewhat changes the answer to your inquiry:

Where do you live/where would you want to make your career?

Most of the perspective above are from people based in the US, where tuition is the highest and opportunities to play as a classical player probably the fewest relative to the number of players.

Just an observation on the military band route.

When I started as an engineer with the Army about 30 years ago, seeing the full 45 piece concert band was normal. There were regular seasonal and holiday concerts, promotion and change of command ceremonies, parades, formations, Army Birthday, Armed Forces Day, etc. The repertoire was what you would expect from a skilled wind ensemble. Occasionally they'd pull a big band or combo out of the full band and do a number or two.

In the last maybe ten years I've seen a full band once, for a Commanding General change of command. MG or LTG, not BG. All other events get a jazz combo, rock combo, or flute and keyboard, occasionally a brass quintet or woodwind quartet, but always playing pop, funk, rock. They have adapted to what their audiences now want, and it isn't old timey concerts in the park. That suggests you be very flexible with playing lots of different styles, and in very small and exposed groups.

(don't forget you get drug tested after every vacation, have to make weight, and occasionally travel to far off places where there are loud noises)

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:39 pm There is a pretty important question that hasn't been asked yet and that somewhat changes the answer to your inquiry:

Where do you live/where would you want to make your career?

Most of the perspective above are from people based in the US, where tuition is the highest and opportunities to play as a classical player probably the fewest relative to the number of players.

I'm in the middle east area but I have US citizenship in case I chose to do the US military. The local military music program is ok but not as substantial as the US one. School here is very cheap. As I mentioned, $3.5k a year for bachelors at a recognized school. Overall, I would probably be working either locally or in europe if I chose not to go the US military route.

How good are you now? How much are you practicing? Is there anything else you love doing as much as playing music?

I may be a pie-in-the-sky idealist, but I've built a career as a full-time musician, and I don't discourage students who love music, work at it, and want to improve from pursuing music degrees.

A college degree is a college degree. Studying music - at least on an orchestral instrument like trombone - is unique in that you have to have pretty much equal parts self-motivated work and the ability to work well with others. That's valuable in pretty much any field where you might find employment if you don't ultimately make your living in music.

I just saw that the actor Lance Reddick - you may not know his name but you would certainly recognize him - studied composition at the Eastman School of Music before going to Yale Drama School. Alan Greenspan is a Juilliard graduate. A music degree most certainly doesn't disqualify you from doing other kinds of work.

But to answer your question - you have to be very good, both by yourself and when you sit down to play with others. If you can get into a good music school, that's a good sign. If you can distinguish yourself while you're there as one of the players who gets good ensemble assignments, that's another good sign. If you are a player that a lot of other players like to play with and recommend for opportunities that come up, that's a great sign. If you can win an audition for a job like an orchestra or a military band, that's great, but I have many colleagues I work with regularly and recommend often that have never won an audition. I have won a couple, but none for a full-time job.

Who is the best player in your town? Are you better than they are?

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:24 pm Who is the best player in your town? Are you better than they are?

This doesn't come close to describing how good you have to be to win a big audition, or even to feel like you have a good shot going into school for music, unless your "town" is called New York City, or Boston, or Tokyo, or Vienna, or LA...

The big pond is actually a small kiddie pool so full of fish you can't even dip your toe in through all the fish.

JCBone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:02 pm

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:39 pm There is a pretty important question that hasn't been asked yet and that somewhat changes the answer to your inquiry:

Where do you live/where would you want to make your career?

Most of the perspective above are from people based in the US, where tuition is the highest and opportunities to play as a classical player probably the fewest relative to the number of players.

I'm in the middle east area but I have US citizenship in case I chose to do the US military. The local military music program is ok but not as substantial as the US one. School here is very cheap. As I mentioned, $3.5k a year for bachelors at a recognized school. Overall, I would probably be working either locally or in europe if I chose not to go the US military route.

For classical music, Europe has generally fewer music schools (so fewer graduates) and conversely much more gigs per capita (both in terms of full time positions and freelance opportunities) than North America. The pay difference between the top tier gigs and the lower tier gigs is also smaller. Tuition is also much cheaper. So the "return on investment" calculation is very different.

That doesn't change that you need to be good of course, and the level is just as high. It just means that if you're good enough, you're more likely to have opportunities than in the US.

I'll support the answer above "it depends how you define making it". If it means getting a full-time top tier orchestra position and only that, then the answer is you need to be extremely strong in very specific aspects of your playing as well as quite lucky. Which means it's not very likely. If "making it" means being able to make your way into the world and work as a musician, then that's quite a bit more likely. You still need to be strong technically, but you don't need to be quite as strong, and most importantly your strengths don't need to align so specifically to the rather narrow requirements of winning orchestra auditions. In return you do need a broader skillset, but there are then more paths to success.

Some great answers already - I particularly like Chris(Fossil)'s and Gabe's.

Your best bet would be to see if you can get some lessons with people that you might want to go study with at a major school/conservatory. These days, Zoom makes that a real possibility without any travel/hotels, etc. Ask those players to give you an honest assessment of your playing, and if they think that you'd be accepted to their program.

If they do give you a lesson time, make sure that you are 100% prepared (to the best of what your idea of what that is), and make sure that the room that you're playing in is set up to allow you to focus 100% on the lesson. No distractions - make sure your family understands that this is serious and shouldn't be interrupted by noise and people barging in.

If the teachers you reach out to are not encouraging, then it's not an absolute no about having a career, but it does mean that there's a lot of work that needs to happen right away. Realistically, that would lower your chances. I do, however know some working players who started in smaller school programs and got their act together and then transferred to more high level music schools to get the experience of playing in good orchestras/jazz ensembles, and studying with a teacher that knows how to get the best playing out of you.

In addition to studying with a top-notch teacher, a major music program will give you ensembles that rival professional groups, and player colleagues that are serious in their study, and that have a good chance of having a professional career themselves. That is a valuable asset. I played with brass players during my studies who ended up with jobs in: the Met Opera, NY Phil., Utah, Phoenix, Hawaii, San Jose, Sante Fe Opera, N. Carolina, National Arts Centre(Ottawa), Montreal, Vancouver... Those are just what I could recall while sitting here, and just brass players. Lots of working NY freelancers (maybe not right now!) as well, and some that ended up in Europe or Asia. That's what that big tuition buys you - access to an environment that drives a player towards discovering their full potential.

It's a hard road to follow, and can be expensive and not always financially rewarding, but like Chris said - no regrets. If you're discouraged by some of the other messages and don't want to follow up on this path, then that's your choice and there's nothing wrong with that. If you're inspired to see if you can make it, then you need to at least try and see how you stack up against the competition. Good luck!

Jim Scott
Calgary Philharmonic

Marry well.

I'll give you the same quiz I have given my students who asked the same question.

First realize it's not about how good you are but how hard you are willing to work to get to the level you need to be.



- Are you willing to sacrifice whatever it takes to make it happen?

- Do you want it more than anything else in life?

- Can you imagine yourself doing anything else?



If you have to stop and think of your answer or give the incorrect answer to any of the above..... You may wish to reassess your path.

More seriously, all the above is very correct for orchestral playing. Proportionally there are very few spots for a great many applicants. And it comes down to way more than skill - every player coming out of every studio across the US and beyond probably has the requisite skill, so things like connections, networking, professionalism, likeability, etc. are all critical.

There's a whole world of "making it" beyond orchestral positions though, if you want to play more commercial music. To use myself as an example. I'm far from the greatest trombone player out there: I didn't go to university for trombone; I've had very few private lessons; I'm an average improviser; I'm not a great practicer (and for YEARS I didn't really practice at all); etc. But Covid aside I can make a decent sum from playing in wedding bands, and I love it. For scale, a decent wedding gig should net you $350-$500, and even in a very seasonal part of the states you can rack up close to 50 a year of these. Supplement with bar gigs, festivals, occasional recording sessions, perhaps some arranging, and a host of other music tasks as required and it's well within the realm of possibility to clear $30k p/a in this way (US average income in 2019 was $31k). You also get a bunch of free meals thrown into the bargain, especially with weddings. One thing I've missed with Covid is my weekly filet mignon and Dewars White!

Personally I love playing wedding sets, because I get to play decent music (and some of it's even good!) with great people and great friends, and I get to make people happy on a weekly basis.

Other options beyond orchestral playing include, as mentioned, the military route, theatre pits, even things like cruise ship contracts. There's a big world of musical possibilities out there. But for all of it, the MOST important thing is that you love what you do, and are prepared to put in the work for it both in the practice room and beyond. Talk to people, work hard, show up on time, always come prepared, hang out for a drink after the show, email strangers, take lessons, and heck maybe even play trombone well when you get the chance.

I think it was on the Trombone Retreat podcast where somebody asked "Which of these students will be the ones to make it in the professional world?" The answer: "The ones who have to".

I'll add one thing to my comment above. I would advise to
1) study in a big enough market that you can make professional contacts during your studies and have opportunities,
2) not study in a city/region where you know in advance staying and trying to establish your career there won't be an option. Unless that place happens to have a top-tier school with top-tier teachers and high job placement levels for brass players, it would be kind of a waste of time. Your study years are an incredibly valuable time for you to make contacts. There's a decent chance you'll end up doing a Master's degree and move somewhere else for that so it's not a huge deal if you end up not wanting to stay where you did your undergrad, but there's no point to do it somewhere you already know there's no chance you'll want to stay either.

About four decades ago (when there were still plenty of gigs), after attaining the top spot in high school All-State band, and after my first year as college performance major (on a full scholarship, studying with the top studio pro in Nashville), I auditioned for a spot in a top military jazz ensemble. The lead trombonist and conductor dispatched me in about 10 minutes; I didn't even belong in the same room with them. It was a brutal reality check. The next semester, I was a liberal arts major. Those guys did me a huge favor.

biggiesmalls wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:38 pm About four decades ago (when there were still plenty of gigs), after attaining the top spot in high school All-State band, and after my first year as college performance major (on a full scholarship, studying with the top studio pro in Nashville), I auditioned for a spot in a top military jazz ensemble. The lead trombonist and conductor dispatched me in about 10 minutes; I didn't even belong in the same room with them. It was a brutal reality check. The next semester, I was a liberal arts major. Those guys did me a huge favor.

I have to say, based on your info here, that this seems pretty drastic. You didn't win a job as a 19 year old, so you packed it up? Not saying it wasn't the right decision for you, of course.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:59 pmI have to say, based on your info here, that this seems pretty drastic. You didn't win a job as a 19 year old, so you packed it up? Not saying it wasn't the right decision for you, of course.

It was drastic for sure. But once I understood the sheer amount of work and singular focus it would require to play at the level these guys were on, I knew that it wasn't an attainable goal for me, and I wasn't really interested in being a professional musician at any other level.

The upside is that I've enjoyed playing as a hobby ever since, and at 57, I find much joy in playing two or three hours every day.

biggiesmalls wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:12 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:59 pmI have to say, based on your info here, that this seems pretty drastic. You didn't win a job as a 19 year old, so you packed it up? Not saying it wasn't the right decision for you, of course.

It was drastic for sure. But once I understood the sheer amount of work it would require to play at the level these guys were on, I knew that it wasn't an attainable goal for me, and I wasn't really interested in being a professional musician at any other level.

The upside is that I've enjoyed playing as a hobby ever since, and at 57, I find much joy in playing two or three hours every day.

Gotcha. Thanks for elaborating. I've definitely had more than a few of those "oh... I'm THAT far behind" moments.

This is maybe more philosophical than technical - but what do you define as 'making it'? If it's being employed full time as just a musician and nothing else... not that it's impossible, as many players here have done this, but it's not something I would bet on. For every 1 position that someone wins, you have to remember there were probably 50-100 other people who had the opportunity to get invited and didn't make it. We tend to see the positive, but not the reality behind it.

The reality now with the pandemic is a lot of jobs like that are going to be either on the cutting block or will take some serious time before they are all returned in full, and there are more qualified musicians now than there ever has been in history.

However, that doesn't mean it's all doom and gloom. My teacher was very up front about this in college - so I made sure that I explored other things. I worked a job as a social worker part time - and then when I decided to take a leave from my masters due to the pandemic, I went back to that job full time now and I love it. Other than the student loans, I don't have many regrets about the experience of music school, and having many dedicated years to just work on my playing.

I still practice nearly daily, even if it's not the 3 hours a day or more playing I was getting in college, and I think I'm still making huge progress and playing better now than I ever have. I have some ensembles that I was a part of before the pandemic that played at an exceptionally high level and I am looking forward to doing more of that when possible. For me, that's satisfying enough for now. Maybe when something resembling a freelance scene returns after the pandemic, I'll be playing enough not to warrant working full time, and that's a conversation I'll have with myself then.

So really, it depends on your definition of 'making it'. There are ways to 'make it' and not necessarily be employed as a musician full time, which to most of my peers seemed to be the only goal when they were in college.

biggiesmalls wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:38 pm About four decades ago (when there were still plenty of gigs), after attaining the top spot in high school All-State band, and after my first year as college performance major (on a full scholarship, studying with the top studio pro in Nashville), I auditioned for a spot in a top military jazz ensemble. The lead trombonist and conductor dispatched me in about 10 minutes; I didn't even belong in the same room with them. It was a brutal reality check. The next semester, I was a liberal arts major. Those guys did me a huge favor.

My moment came when I was 23 (now 55), in a Navy band, and auditioned for a regional orchestra that didn't even pay enough to clear poverty wages, and didn't make the first cut, and neither did a friend of mine who graduated from Curtis Institute (arguably the most exclusive orchestral brass school anywhere). He later got a seat in the San Francisco Ballet, and I got a seat in Calculus 4.

I think I've enjoyed music much more as an amateur than I could have as a professional.

I guess the question is when do you give up? I've heard stories of people who spend years auditioning with no success and then seemingly out of nowhere, win a job.

I think you're the only one that can answer when to 'give up'. I know Toby Oft mentioned in an interview that if he had hit 30 and not had any success that he was going to hang it up and be an EMT. That's pretty extreme. Maybe if you spend a few years doing it and then have a realization that you don't like doing it you will stop. I like playing too much to stop, so I keep playing, even if it's not always the most important thing in my life.

Auditions are not the most perfect 'merit based' hiring process that I see people think they are. I definitely used to think they were, but after having done them, being on smaller panels, now personally knowing people that have been on panels regularly, including ones that I've been at, they are absolutely not. Trying to get a group of 10-25 people of all different biases and backgrounds to agree on a single person after listening to the same short 6-minute list of excerpts over and over again... good luck.

I know personally at least a few professionals with a big full-time position already who have auditioned for another orchestra and did not advance out of the prelims. Players who are first-call substitutes with a large orchestra but can't get past the prelims either. Many orchestras will auto-advance people into the finals that they know or think they want to hire already. Then there are also players who are incredible and win over and over but don't get tenured because no one wants to work with them.

Maybe what I'm trying to say that winning auditions is a good goal, but probably shouldn't be the end goal or one you justify your worth or success on. The best thing to do is to be prepared as you can be and as committed to your musical ideas and not worry about the outcome necessarily.

BurckhardtS wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:59 pm Maybe what I'm trying to say that winning auditions is a good goal, but probably shouldn't be the end goal or one you justify your worth or success on. The best thing to do is to be prepared as you can be and as committed to your musical ideas and not worry about the outcome necessarily.

Bingo.

"The highest reward for your working is not what you get for it but what you become by it." - Sydney Harris

I've taken many auditions for professional gigs. Not as many as a lot of my colleagues, but more than enough for me. I've won two, for per-service orchestra jobs I still have, and those two jobs make up less than a quarter of my performing income. The rest is pure freelancing, working in a network that I've built up over nearly 30 years. I make about the same amount from teaching, and that's essentially 100% of my solid middle-class income.

That didn't happen immediately out of school. For 15 years I also worked part-time jobs that gave me the flexibility to take nearly every gig that came along.

The point is, you don't have to win "the big job" to have a successful career in music. But every time I've prepared myself for an audition I've become a better, more complete, more refined player - regardless of the outcome.

If I had quit when I was 30 because I hadn't won "the big job," I wouldn't have the life I have now, which - excluding the pandemic - I absolutely love.

And another thing: the results of an audition tell you something, but they are not a definitive judgement of anybody's playing. A couple of years ago I took two auditions in a week, both for orchestras I had subbed in. In the first one I made the finals; the winner of that audition won the Buffalo Phil audition the next week. In the second one I didn't get out of the first round, and two of my students advanced past me. I'm incredibly proud of both of them, but obviously neither has close to the experience I have.

Yes, it's funny how 15 minutes can change your life. The financial security that a full time position brings is nice....no, better than nice, but it does mean that you have to be loyal to that organisation and that you may have to pass up on things you would love to do... that's happened a few times over the years. What is making it ? If it's playing all the time and getting paid to do it, a lot more people make it than you might realise, and that's nice.

Chris

There's also a seldom acknowledged flip-side to the idea that "making it" must mean winning a full-time job: it's not the majority of course, but there are still many orchestral musicians who are not happy in their job and do not feel artistically fulfilled, but can do little about it because the job doesn't leave them the time or possibility of accepting external gigs that would be fulfilling for them. And they can't leave the job to do freelance and pursue projects that would fulfill them better, because they've built their lives around the income and stability that orchestra job provides, and have families to support and mortgages to pay. You could say they're lucky to have a job that gives them security and stability, but that's not usually the reason wht you want to play music in the first place. If you're not happy in your job, how successful are you really?

Then on a more philosophical level...plenty of orchestral players are really good musicians. But being a good musician is not necessarily what got then the job in many cases. Because there's also orchestra players who are really solid players with perfect technique and consistency, and the right skillset for an orchestra job, but are frankly poor musicians at best, with little knowledge and understanding of how music works and why, and with superficial and boring musicality. So, are they more or less successful than players who are much more complete and better musicians overall but don't have a full-time orchestra job? Is success only measured in terms of income? Who has "made it" more?

It's been alluded to above, but not fully mentioned, that being versatile seems to be more important these days. In the U.S. it's said that the average worker changes jobs and even careers many times over his or her life. The same could also be said of those of us in the music business. I don't think it's realistic (or even fun, in my opinion) to just do one thing for your entire life. "Making it" in the music business (for me) has meant being a jack of all trades.

Yes, if you want to be truly great at one thing it's probably necessary to do only that. If that's your all-encompassing goal, then you'll need to pursue it that way. If you can't ever see yourself doing anything else, then you can seriously consider that route. On the other hand, if you want to make a living in music then I suggest you work on developing a diverse skill set. I believe that even most military band jobs these days require the musician to be able to play in a wide variety of styles.

I'm perhaps not the paragon of "success," but I've been able to make my living with music for my entire adult life (at least after graduate school). I've mainly worked as a music educator, but I've got experience teaching at all levels and ages ranging from elementary through college and even working with professionals needing some help with specific things I have an interest in. I compose and arrange music, mainly big band jazz, but also write for student ensembles and for a wide variety of instrumentation/ensembles. As a trombonist I only play tenor trombone these days, but have played alto and bass seriously at one time. I am comfortable subbing in a local orchestra, playing big band lead and section, improvising jazz, etc. I work regularly (pre-COVID) with bands playing music ranging from classical to early jazz to bebop to salsa to rock and R&B. I also conduct and get paid to direct community groups. My day job is mostly administrating an El Sistema program and I also teach elementary music and college music.

Because I happen to be interested in lots of different things I've been able to be flexible and adapt. If that sounds exciting to you then there are opportunities to make it in music. Having a non-music day job doesn't mean you have to compromise your music either. Some of the best (and happiest) musicians I know do something not related to music for a living and spend their evenings and weekends making very good music.

Dave

You'd probably be surprised at the number of famous people in music who had "day jobs".

Charles Ives sold insurance.
Nicolai Rimsky-Korsakov was a naval officer.
Alexander Borodin was a professor of Chemistry.

Charles Kavalovsky (former Principal Horn of the Boston Symphony) had a PhD in Physics.
Burton Fine (former Principal Viola of the Boston Symphony) had a PhD in Chemistry.

JJ Johnson had a Day Job as a Drawing Inspector for Sperry Instruments for times when the gigs dried up.

Wes Montgomery worked in a foundry.

I heard that the Chicago Symphony wasn't a year-round job until after the WWII.

Be on time, be prepared, be versatile, be clean, don't be a dick and do not try and steal other people's jobs when depping (subbing)

As others have said more ways than winning an orchestra, freelancing is hard especially when you start out (and often beyond) but if you want to try and make it then go for it, what the worst that can happen? You don't make a living and go on and do something else, but you will not die wondering what if

It really depends on your own definition of success, how much risk you are willing to take, and what your life goals are other than music. The pandemic and what the performing arts landscape may look like afterward is an added element of uncertainty for someone younger who has to make this choice.

I've seen a lot of people making a living in music who don't blow my socks off as players. It's hard to underestimate the importance of people skills and connections, I think. To get the more desirable/secure/high-profile gigs you have to play extremely well though, for sure, regardless of personality. But there are plenty of other ways to make money in music besides only the very best gigs.

And if you don't really care about being a high earner (I don't) and you don't want kids (I don't), and nothing else is really calling out to you career-wise, it's hard to see the harm in at least trying music for a year or three. You can always change your major. What I wanted to do with my life practically turned on its head during my undergrad years. It happens.

On the other hand if you want to make a lot of money and/or comfortably support a family (I honestly have no idea what it feels like to want those things) then it's probably better, in my opinion, to optimize for that as soon as you can, and orient toward a major that leads to a lucrative career. You could take some music classes as electives, or maybe even do a music minor, to stay in touch with it. Plenty of fantastic musicians I knew in my teenage years opted for this choice. And unlike me some of them actually own houses and cars and things like that.

I do have one practical bit of advice that I am not seeing in this thread so far:

If you think you want to freelance or otherwise might be working in the US without employer-sponsored health insurance, and you aren't irrationally attached to being in the US, I encourage you to seriously consider relocating to a country with universal healthcare (i.e. any other developed country). Generally the easiest way to get your foot in the door for relocation is by studying abroad. You can aim to study abroad for your master's if it doesn't now seem feasible for undergrad.

Also if you think you might try moving abroad, I would suggest that as an undergrad you take some classes in the native language of the region(s) you think you might want to move to.

Just for reference, the OP is not located in the US

So I think I have made up my mind and I have decided that I don't want to persue music as a career. At least where I am, the classical music industry is not really going in a positive direction. Almost every pro orchestra in the area is on the verge of colapse (it was like this before covid) I don't know what it's like in other places but I assume it's a similar situation. I also realized that I'm not really interested in teaching. Maybe I'll try to get into my countries military orchestra, then after that, I think I'm going to go into the Aviation Industry. (hopefully it will recover from COVID in a timely fashion) I'll probably continue playing as a hobby and maybe get a few paid gigs. It's a shame but it just doesn't seem like a wise choice.

JCBone wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:44 pm So I think I have made up my mind and I have decided that I don't want to persue music as a career. ...
I'll probably continue playing as a hobby and maybe get a few paid gigs. It's a shame but it just doesn't seem like a wise choice.

You are now at least making an informed decision.

Don't give up music as a "hobby" -- as many of us non-career musicians (or ex-pros) know, making music can nevertheless provide abundant pleasure for the rest of our lives.

If you want to be a full time pro in Stockholm you need to get a job in one of the orchestras here. There are two symphony orchestras and one opera orchestra and three windorchestras. I guess they employ 3-5 trombone players each so I guess tha make about 25 full time tromboneplayers in the Stockholm area. You can have one of their jobs when they retire if you are the best tromboneplayer when the audition shows up. Its pretty tough to be a full time professional. To be a freelancer is the choice. You need to be a nice smooth, guy if you want to be a freelancer. Then you need to do the gigs in a way you get the second call

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:09 am If you want to be a full time pro in Stockholm you need to get a job in one of the orchestras here. There are two symphony orchestras and one opera orchestra and three windorchestras. I guess they employ 3-5 trombone players each so I guess tha make about 25 full time tromboneplayers in the Stockholm area. You can have one of their jobs when they retire if you are the best tromboneplayer when the audition shows up. Its pretty tough to be a full time professional. To be a freelancer is the choice. You need to be a nice smooth, guy if you want to be a freelancer. Then you need to do the gigs in a way you get the second call

/Tom

Tom,
The wind orchestras are also professionals?