TromboneChat

Hello all,

I hope everyone is safe and well as we look forward to better days ahead.

I have a question:

A friend has reached out to me and asked if I had any information about converting a trombone with an F-attachment to a trombone with a G-attachment. I seem to recall, somewhere in a recess of my mind, seeing a discussion about this many years ago. Either an article, a dissertation, or a method book. But I cannot put my finger on this. If anyone recalls this kind of discussion, I'd love to know the source so I can pass on this information.

Many thanks,

-Douglas Yeo

You can convert the two-slide King F-attachment to G by putting one of the slides between the two legs coming directly from the valve. I tried this with a King 4B but had a problem of interference from the main tuning slide brace (it has to be removed).

I don't think you can make a G crook for an open wrap F-attachment because too much tubing is left if you remove the tuning slide.

I believe there was a Holton trombone that had a G attachment instead of F, but I don't remember which model it was. I know it was in the "student" line.

We had a discussion of this on TTF, but I'm not sure if it made the transition here.

There was a guy back then in San Diego who had a bunch of King trombones with G-attachments. He also used pretty models to display his horns. It's been a few years though...

boneberg wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:23 pm There was a guy back then in San Diego who had a bunch of King trombones with G-attachments. He also used pretty models to display his horns. It's been a few years though...

It seems like his name was Anthony, Antonio or Tony - something like that. He seemed to make a good case for the G-attachment. Does anyone else remember?

boneberg wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:39 pm

boneberg wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:23 pm There was a guy back then in San Diego who had a bunch of King trombones with G-attachments. He also used pretty models to display his horns. It's been a few years though...

It seems like his name was Anthony, Antonio or Tony - something like that. He seemed to make a good case for the G-attachment. Does anyone else remember?

Anthony Cecena. Don't remember his forum handle but it wasn't his name. I thought he went to Hawaii. He was the first person to suggest the King crook swap.

I just found a discussion on this at the beginning of June 2020

Thanks to everyone for this. Thanks for his name, Bruce, and to boneberg for mentioning that this has been discussed here earlier:

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=15262

I appreciate all of your help.

-Douglas Yeo

yeodoug wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:35 pm Thanks to everyone for this. Thanks for his name, Bruce, and to boneberg for mentioning that this has been discussed here earlier:

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=15262

I appreciate all of your help.

-Douglas Yeo

Glad to help out, Doug!
2Cor5:20

I guess it would be a permanent conversion judging by those pics. I don’t see how it could be easily converted back. Unless someone made the cut tube into an extendable tube with another tuning slide section...

Amconk wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:19 pm I guess it would be a permanent conversion judging by those pics. I don’t see how it could be easily converted back. Unless someone made the cut tube into an extendable tube with another tuning slide section...

The cut is just so the short tube is able to fit and make it to G. Now only the end of the long tube will be able to go in, but it will work. Therefore you can just revert it back, with only a section of the outer tuning slide leg missing.

Peacemate wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:24 pmThe cut is just so the short tube is able to fit and make it to G. Now only the end of the long tube will be able to go in, but it will work. Therefore you can just revert it back, with only a section of the outer tuning slide leg missing.

Only concern there would be if the stock configuration was able to do an E pull, which is why most have such a long tuning slide.

I suspect we may see more about G-attachments now that we have big name bass trombone players using Bb/F/G/Eb tunings again, mainly for the advantages that the G attachment gives.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:31 pm

Peacemate wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:24 pmThe cut is just so the short tube is able to fit and make it to G. Now only the end of the long tube will be able to go in, but it will work. Therefore you can just revert it back, with only a section of the outer tuning slide leg missing.

Only concern there would be if the stock configuration was able to do an E pull, which is why most have such a long tuning slide.

I suspect we may see more about G-attachments now that we have big name bass trombone players using Bb/F/G/Eb tunings again, mainly for the advantages that the G attachment gives.

On the King, the long loop is for your E-pull and the short loop is for tuning. If you use the short loop slide for your G-attachment you should be able to put it in without modification. The long loop slide is left unchanged so you can still use it for the E-pull.

On the old trombone forum OTJ, and possibly even on the trombone-l (those days tend to blur a bit for me now) there was extensive discussion of the G attachment. Sometimes the threads referred to it as minor third.

The name I remember as a strong proponent was Alan Charlesworth. I think that BP Leonard was also a fan, but then he got into the constant bore argument and some flame wars ensued.

The following is my opinion. FWIW.

For the average amateur who is not trying to emulate a bass trombone, the tenor trombone with G trigger makes a huge amount of sense to me. It adds some technical facility potential in the middle range where we normally play. It loses the low C, but the average amateur is not convincing on those notes anyway. The F attachment is not that useful in the staff, as so many of the positions are nearly the same. It's sort of like the gearing on the old ten speed bikes. (do they still make those?) Yes there are ten speeds, but several are pretty close. When I rode more often I shifted crossover and it became a very useful six speed.

Above the staff the valve notes start to show some timbre differences. I'm pretty sure some minor changes in construction would solve that; horn, trumpet, euphonium have no issues using valves as high as they can play. But there''s little demand for that, and possibly you would lose the very low range.

If I had it to do over again, in 1971 when I bought my first pro horn I would have bought a .525 with G instead of a .547 with F. Given the usual venues I've played over the years it would have been better value.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:01 pm

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:31 pm Only concern there would be if the stock configuration was able to do an E pull, which is why most have such a long tuning slide.

I suspect we may see more about G-attachments now that we have big name bass trombone players using Bb/F/G/Eb tunings again, mainly for the advantages that the G attachment gives.

On the King, the long loop is for your E-pull and the short loop is for tuning. If you use the short loop slide for your G-attachment you should be able to put it in without modification. The long loop slide is left unchanged so you can still use it for the E-pull.

The open wrap Benges have the strange tuning slide setup that seem like they would accommodate an easy conversion to G. Now I'm wondering they ever made slides like that as an option, or if any King slides would fit.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:46 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:01 pm

On the King, the long loop is for your E-pull and the short loop is for tuning. If you use the short loop slide for your G-attachment you should be able to put it in without modification. The long loop slide is left unchanged so you can still use it for the E-pull.

The open wrap Benges have the strange tuning slide setup that seem like they would accommodate an easy conversion to G. Now I'm wondering they ever made slides like that as an option, or if any King slides would fit.

The only King slides that look like they might fit the Benge 190F would be the 7B or 8B. The F and Gb slides on my 7B are interchangeable, although I wasn't able to make the thumb Gb (the basic tubing is too long) but I was able to make the two valves F with the tuning slides swapped and both pulled out a bit. I found almost no use for such an arrangement.

I'd forgotten about this one:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US5435222

Though, a search shows I've posted it before at least once.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:46 pm I'd forgotten about this one:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US5435222

Though, a search shows I've posted it before at least once.

That seems to be a similar concept as the Yamaha 350C. Shorter than usual slide but still the ability to play with normal positions. Neat.