TromboneChat

Hi Folks,

I tried to put these questions for a discussion on he FB Tbone chat, but didn't get a whole lot of answers. So here there are:

1. Does anybody use in his practice routine the Cat Anderson whisper G and other calinestenic exercises involving playing with closed teeth (or at least try for).
2. Does anybody use unfurled/forward kiss position for high register playing (not necessarily only for high register?

2. Any other ideas enhancing endurance and high register besides long tones and Caruso type of exercises?

Maggio

I try to play with my teeth as closed as possible WHILE STILL MAKING A GOOD SOUND.  I encourage others to do so as well.  I also endeavor to avoid "opening up" for a bigger sound, or for lower notes.

I haven't done Maggio (although I suppose it is good).  I used Remington, long tones, and Caruso-like exercises (note that I only recently learned the real thing and discovered that I may have been doing parts of it for years).

There's more than one way to skin this cat, although I don't like to use the word "cheats".  Only real cheat I know of is to use a very small mouthpiece.  Lets the high notes out, but destroys the low ones.

There are no real cheats to intelligent practice. The above mentioned exercises and approaches are no exceptions. There's why I put them between ".But there are some exercises that may give us the right tools to achieve our goals.

I saw a video of someone demonstrating the whisper G and I thought it was a joke. Since finding out it's not, I have asked a few people how doing that could possibly be beneficial and no one I have asked has know what the point is. Can someone here explain? Or is it something you have to discuss and see demonstrated in person?

I have not done the whisper G though I've read about it.

I have done the lips rolled out thing.  I found I could get into the high range (high for me) by reducing pressure and rolling the lips out.  I had read the advice here to learn to pull the high register down. 

Well, it didn't work at all.  I had to reset the mouthpiece to get into that rolled out position, it was unstable, and it would not pull down.  But it did give me high notes. 

Later I took a lesson from Doug and what he described, lower lip firm against the teeth, turned out to be the opposite of what I'd come up with.  Also, it worked. 

I think there is a trumpet embouchure that does use the rolled out terminology.  Is it BE, balanced embouchure maybe?  I have not looked into it, no point confusing myself with yet another approach. 

Quote from: bonenick on Oct 21, 2017, 02:03AM
2. Any other ideas enhancing endurance and high register besides long tones and Caruso type of exercises?


It's the "F" word again. Flexibilities. Try playing in 6th position a bar of medium tempo 8th notes repeating an A to C, moving up a position (5th Bb Db) until you get to 1st.

Next play C to Eb stopping at 2nd to avoid the Ab in 1st.

Then Eb to F, F to G, G to A.

Change to note values to triplets to aid swing and interest. When you feel that the note is going to fail, adjust aperture focus.

The advantage of this is being able to easily move around in the upper register without getting overly slotted.

Pre59,

I like your idea - I haven't tried it yet, but I often noodle on lip trills, slurs, bends and alike on every possible position and register. Some combination position+partials are more difficult or delicate, but that's no surprise.

Tim,

It is worth noticing that I am still experimenting on what works (for me) and what doesn't. Still, a lot of what I learned from the trumpet works on the trumpet, but some "stuff" is rather questionable.

WHISPER G. - it is a Cat Anderson's invention, kind of follow up/development of Toy Stevens/Costello (and possibly Maggio, not sure though on the latter) teachings and embouchure concepts.

It does few things at once - forces you to use the advised set up and develop embouchure involved muscle strength and control. Combined with the pencil exercise it teaches you to tweak/maintain certain aperture that is supposed to be helpful in high register (at least on trumpet)

The roll out embouchure is probably the most controversial part of it. It works (at least on trumpet) but is not something to expect to happen overnight. As far as I can say, it gives you a brighter and clearly livelier sound and makes embouchure work somewhat like a single Reed embouchure - most movement and tweaking is done by the lower jaw and the upper lip - the lower lip works a bit like a foundation and vibration mass - Hopefully that make sense.

IDDQD and IDKFA have worked well in the past for me.

Intrigued by these postings, I tried to learn about whisper G and found a few trumpet videos online. I tried to transfer the idea to the trombone. I put the teeth on top of each other to reduce overbite. The lips move somewhat more out and inside the mouthpiece. Also the back of the tongue comes up. Unsuprisingly there is lots of restistance. The sound is awful even after trying for a week. But I find it is an excellent exercise loosing up the tip of your lips and exercising them. I don't know what are possible side effects though. Usually I mostly focus on beautiful sound. This exercise is somewhat counter to that least on the surface.

I couldn't detect an effect on high range yet. But this was not my primary concern.

Any system that isn't or can't be integrated into the rest of the range is not going to be that useful in the long term. Good for grandstanding though..

There's an Anderson exercise I learned years ago, it may have been Clark Terry that told it to us (this was in a masterclass, although I had a lesson with him afterwards and it may have been in that.)

F above the staff (MM=80?) hold for 8 counts, tongue legato 8ths for 8 counts, hold 8 more counts? At least that is what the exercise has morphed into over time. This was over 25 years ago so the details have "shifted" as they're want to do over time. I would do this until right on the verge of being tired and then rest. Usually came after my remington/arp/lipslurs and before my tongue exercises. I wouldn't say it extended my high range per se but it definitely seemed to help stabilize it and it definitely helped with endurance. I always had a hard cut off on my high range that stopped at High Db, this exercise made that note stronger but didn't do much to get me above it.

Until Doug - Doug got me above that note. Thank you Doug. The only "cheat" I know that works - get the right gear for your face.

It's been a very long time since I read Maggio or Anderson's books, so my recollection of them may be off.

Maggio's system is based on playing a lot of pedal tones. Based on what I can remember about it, he advocated a very puckered lip position, at least for the pedal tones. I think risks giving you a low register embouchure and then a high register setting, or worse, using that puckered position throughout. Personally, I didn't recall finding enough to make it worth picking Maggio's book up or reading it again.

Anderson's exercises were, I think, mostly long tones at a very soft dynamic level. The "Whisper G" exercise is to hold out a middle trumpet G very, very softly for a very long time. I think there's some merit in playing very softly in the middle register. Both very high playing and very soft playing require (or result) in the embouchure aperture being very small. Playing in the middle register isn't as taxing as playing in the upper register so by playing very softly you simulate one aspect of high register playing and do it in a safe, targeted way. I think there's also a lot of benefit you can get from practicing the extreme upper register by playing very softly too ("squeakers").

Why are you asking about these methods? Are you looking to understand them for a teaching purpose, research, or personal practice?

Every day I do longtones soft tones flexibilities scales arpeggios and Caruso. Most time on scales and broken chord. Upcomming music to play soon.

Yes I tried the whisper G (wisper F actually) I reall think it has some value. For some. If you do it right.

I did look at Maggio in the 80th after hearing trumpeters doing it. I am sure it is good for some. Do it right? Well.
For me Maggio is not an option. It might be for trumpet players and trombone player that never have play in the low range.
For me the pedaltones is to be played like any other tones. Firm corners loose center. I am not saying that Maggio is bad, but I say it is not for everybody. I could tell about why I dont do Maggio. But not now.

What is for everybody? I believe longtones flexibilities scales striving for a good blow and good sound. And of course playing music.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Oct 22, 2017, 07:59AMIDDQD and IDKFA have worked well in the past for me.

I recognize the cheat codes for god mode and guns/ ammo but I forget the game! 

Quote from: Torobone on Dec 17, 2017, 12:59PMI recognize the cheat codes for god mode and guns/ ammo but I forget the game! 

DOOM!

You win the points!

Doing a search for some Maggio examples I found this.

WHAT ABOUT PEDAL TONES? BY FRANK G. CAMPOS

Nearly all of the so-called “high note methods” dating from the middle of the last century include extensive amounts of pedal exercises. The methods of Claude Gordon, Charles S. Peters, Roger W. Spaulding, and Roy Stevens/William Costello all appear to be heavily influenced by (and even copied note for note in some cases) from the work of Louis Maggio.4 Ironically, the exercises in this highly influential method appear to have originated from the practice material of one of the world’s greatest virtuosos, Rafael Méndez. Méndez stated that Maggio “...studied my playing and watched me when I was warming up with those pedal tones, and developed that way of teaching his system. From me, not me from him. It was my father’s It was my father’s style... As a matter of fact, when Mr. Maggio died, he left me all his material. I really didn’t need it because he got that from my way of playing.

Quote from: Pre59 on Dec 18, 2017, 01:21AMDoing a search for some Maggio examples I found this.

WHAT ABOUT PEDAL TONES? BY FRANK G. CAMPOS

Nearly all of the so-called “high note methods” dating from the middle of the last century include extensive amounts of pedal exercises. The methods of Claude Gordon, Charles S. Peters, Roger W. Spaulding, and Roy Stevens/William Costello all appear to be heavily influenced by (and even copied note for note in some cases) from the work of Louis Maggio.4 Ironically, the exercises in this highly influential method appear to have originated from the practice material of one of the world’s greatest virtuosos, Rafael Méndez. Méndez stated that Maggio “...studied my playing and watched me when I was warming up with those pedal tones, and developed that way of teaching his system. From me, not me from him. It was my father’s It was my father’s style... As a matter of fact, when Mr. Maggio died, he left me all his material. I really didn’t need it because he got that from my way of playing.
I heard trumpet players a cuple of times in my life who could play pedaltones that really sounds like tones. I heard several hundreds of trumpet players "played" pedal tones what really did not sound like musical tones at all. I think it was Claude Gordon who said " if the pedaltones don´t sound good you better not play the at all".

How long have trombone players practised pedal tones?
I never saw any pedal tones in the repoire from 1600 and up to 1900.
"Fake tones" or falsett stimme was played at least from the beginning of 1600.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Dec 18, 2017, 02:52AMHow long have trombone players practised pedal tones?
I never saw any pedal tones in the repoire from 1600 and up to 1900.
"Fake tones" or falsett stimme was played at least from the beginning of 1600.

My Mueller edition of David's concertino has a pedal B.

I believe pedal tones should be played on the trombone like any other tones without a noticeable break in the character of the sound.

Here are two videos explaining whisper G on the trumpet. For me, it is not just long soft tones but aligning the teeth on top of each other so as to minimize overbite. This focuses the vibration of the lips at the tip of their lips. And this is exactly the part that I believe is to be exercised with whisper G. I am still practicing it (now for two weeks) because I find it improves more control on the tip of my lips. I don't know the long term effects or ``side effects''.

https://youtu.be/xzs-X_spH2M

https://youtu.be/poAGh5EXD6U

Quote from: Bcschipper on Dec 18, 2017, 11:13AMMy Mueller edition of David's concertino has a pedal B.

I believe pedal tones should be played on the trombone like any other tones without a noticeable break in the character of the sound.
Yes you are right. There was some pedal tones in the 1800 reportoire. I am sure some players played pedal tones very early, why should they not?
Yes the pedal tones has to be played just like any other tones to be used in music. Trumpers don´t need the pedal tones in their music. Well here are some examples of good pedal tones on trumpet though, but they are rare.

Interesting links! Especially the last one.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Dec 19, 2017, 04:03AM
Interesting links! Especially the last one.

This link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jztGQW7fml8

demonstrates a little more clearly.  It's Charlie Porter, and we've had some discussions and disagreements about his theories.  But I think his demonstration of whisper tones and trying not to slip into louder is good.  Unlike the other demonstrators he doesn't mention keeping the teeth together so I don't know if he does that part of the whisper tones. 

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 19, 2017, 06:16AMThis link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jztGQW7fml8
I like that one.  That's exactly what I've talked about.  He demonstrates it perfectly.

Keeping the teeth fairly close together is part of it, but touching in front is not essential.  Most people can't get anything out that way and then they dismiss the whole idea.

I can get a sound out with teeth closed but it's hard, and really sensitive to chops motion.  But then it's not something I've worked on. 

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 19, 2017, 07:23AMI like that one.  That's exactly what I've talked about.  He demonstrates it perfectly.

Keeping the teeth fairly close together is part of it, but touching in front is not essential.  Most people can't get anything out that way and then they dismiss the whole idea.

I deliberately did not include the link to Porter because he doesn't mention that the teeth should be aligned. To me this is a very essential feature. Without it, I don't get the hyperfocus of vibrating the very tip of my lips. May be I do something wrong. But I tried to make sense of the fact that whisper G is supposed to be something beyond long extremely soft tones.

What comes out very nicely in the Porter video though is that the whisper tone is at the "edge" between a sound and no sound. May be his teeth are such that he doesn't need to reduce overbite by aligning the teeth. In fact, in his video on the embochure he advocates for an alignment of the teeth in any case; see the exact sequence in his video https://youtu.be/lLE_-ly8hrQ?t=12m44s. So for him aligning upper with lower teeth is kind of automatic and that's why he may not mention it explicitly in his video on whisper G.

That video is interesting for a couple of reasons.

One is that he almost but not quite duplicates Doug's procedure of set, place, breath, play.  He says some other stuff that is different.

The other is that he is more detailed and repetitious than probably any other tutorial video on youtube.  You can't miss what he's trying to teach, it's kind of a lesson in how to do an indepth video. 

He explains very good so even I got most of it. I never listen any play that quiet before, at least not a trumpet player. One question, he don't do anything special or unusual that differ from his normal playing, just be very firm around the mouth? I thought I could play soft but I didn't get it that soft.

Leif

Leif, that takes some practice. I believe that it is a matter of balance. Once you can ignite the sound without forcing or tongue and can maintain a steady air flow on such soft volumes, it becomes almost natural, but it remains a good chop and airflow exercise. On low brass is a bit more difficult, but not impossible.

I got around to watching the videos, and trying this. It is rather hard to play above a whisper with my upper and lower teeth touching, but I can feel my face muscles working.

Without buying the poster's book and seeing what else he has to say, I would say this is the second (or higher) step into the study of compression for trumpet players. Trumpet players also use tongue arch support for extreme high range. I've heard of some trombone players using it, but I'm less convinced that we need it.

I started working on lip compression about 10 years ago, and I've added at least a 4th to my range. My teacher, Al Kay, has said to me that I can expect to add a note per year. I have watched him perform the Bolero solo an octave above where it is written.

I also had to learn how compression appies to bass trombone playing. A simple answer is less so, but I'm now able to switch between tenor and bass easily on the same gig.

Though I was off the bone for more than a month after a surgery in november (and finding my tone obnoxious for the first session after the come-back) I can tell that the closed teeth setup is nothing more than a embouchure stregth exercise (not to be used in a performance). I am not sure if Charlie Porter is playing with teeth closed on the video. However, working this may makes easier to switch from full/classical sound to more airy, Till Bronner/Chet Baker kind of sound (didn't really worked on this on the tbone) To be honest, I never heard any tbone player doing it on will (as a signature sound, not just an ocassional effect)

Quote from: bonenick on Dec 23, 2017, 01:23PMTo be honest, I never heard any tbone player doing it on will (as a signature sound, not just an ocassional effect)

I'll keep saying this until someone acknowledges that they've listened to it ( ) -- Glenn Ferris, especially on the album Face Lift, in his trio with double bass and cello.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Dec 19, 2017, 04:03AMYes you are right. There was some pedal tones in the 1800 reportoire. I am sure some players played pedal tones very early, why should they not?
Yes the pedal tones has to be played just like any other tones to be used in music. Trumpers don´t need the pedal tones in their music. Well here are some examples of good pedal tones on trumpet though, but they are rare.

Interesting links! Especially the last one.

The pedal tones on trumpet don't seem to center as well an octave below the next fundamental, like they do on trombone. They don't sound as good, either. Somebody on the forum told me that they don't maximize trumpet design for pedal tones because they're not used much.

Quote from: growlerbox on Dec 23, 2017, 01:56PMI'll keep saying this until someone acknowledges that they've listened to it ( ) -- Glenn Ferris, especially on the album Face Lift, in his trio with double bass and cello.

 

I don't know if this counts, but it definitely seems like a 'cheat':

I have a sort of 'falsetto' range on trombone, achieved by the bottom lip going behind the bottom teeth, and the upper lip going in front of it, sort of curling and stretching the lips, as nearly as I can describe it. It's a thinner tone, like a vocal falsetto.

I top out at D and maybe F using the 'press and pray' method, but those notes are easier by the aforementioned method, and I top out at the Bb above that in 'falsetto', with little pressure, although the tone becomes less and less viable. I wonder if anyone else uses that when playing.

Quote from: Piano man on Dec 23, 2017, 02:22PM

Finally! 

Quote from: growlerbox on Dec 23, 2017, 02:32PMFinally! 

I find it interesting that trombone has an extremely wide tonal range compared to other instruments, but that people tend to play it with a fairly legit tone. Guys like Roswell and Glenn push that boundary more than others. Look at the variety of sax tonality in fairly accessible and commercial music. You have that clean, light tone, like Lee Konitz and Paul Desmond, then the big hearty guys, and the growls and honks and squawks and the breathy players that go 'fa fa fa' on the notes, and none of that is viewed as a defect.

In particular, I think that breathy tone works nicely on trombone.

Quote from: Piano man on Dec 23, 2017, 02:30PMI don't know if this counts, but it definitely seems like a 'cheat':

I have a sort of 'falsetto' range on trombone, achieved by the bottom lip going behind the bottom teeth, and the upper lip going in front of it, sort of curling and stretching the lips, as nearly as I can describe it. It's a thinner tone, like a vocal falsetto.

I top out at D and maybe F using the 'press and pray' method, but those notes are easier by the aforementioned method, and I top out at the Bb above that in 'falsetto', with little pressure, although the tone becomes less and less viable. I wonder if anyone else uses that when playing.


Dick Nash?

...Geezer

I never heard of Glenn Ferris, I watched some youtube today.

Wow. 
Thanks for sharing.

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 23, 2017, 06:45PMI never heard of Glenn Ferris, I watched some youtube today.

Wow. 
Thanks for sharing.

I first heard him in high school, when we played Don Ellis's "Final Analysis." His solo on that track pissed me off a little because it sounded like he wasn't even trying to sound good. I recently reheard it, after listening to and respecting his later work, and it still pissed me off a little.

But we don't have enough Eric Dolphys in the trombone world, who aren't afraid to get a little ugly. Glenn Ferris's use of a breathy, unconventional tone in the linked post wouldn't be even slightly controversial on any other instrument. We need to get uglier, in a beautiful way.

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Dec 23, 2017, 02:42PMDick Nash?

...Geezer
Why do you think so?
Dicks sound on the 24th partial F was full and strong. And with the mpc extremely low on the mouth. ?

Quote from: svenlarsson on Dec 24, 2017, 02:59AMWhy do you think so?
Dicks sound on the 24th partial F was full and strong. And with the mpc extremely low on the mouth. ?

I was under the impression that the question was speculative as to who rolls their lower lip in to play high, not who uses the Whisper G technique. I remember a vid of Dick Nash showing how he rolled his lip in to play high.

...Geezer

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 23, 2017, 06:45PMI never heard of Glenn Ferris, I watched some youtube today.

Wow. 
Thanks for sharing.

Me too! I don't see (hear) what the big deal is. He has a marvelous tone and isn't afraid of exploring the lower register. Those special effects mentioned are simply that - special effects, not a non-stop way of playing. Terrific!

Thanks for the Glen Ferris turn on!

Headphones on! "SAINT JAMES INFIRMARY". Too much reverb. Lol!

...Geezer

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Dec 24, 2017, 05:17AMI was under the impression that the question was speculative as to who rolls their lower lip in to play high, not who uses the Whisper G technique. I remember a vid of Dick Nash showing how he rolled his lip in to play high.

...Geezer


Yes Dick Nash does roll....there is also a video on you tube of Dick telling the story of how he explained how he did this to JJ Johnson when JJ decided to return to playing......

Another player with similar low placement and a fantastic high F and above was the late great Don Lusher!

I neither pout, nor roll, but purse..

Not sure if this the right platform but I'm I'm going to enquire about is entirely associated with high register practicing. I am a beginner and played for about 8 months now. I'm trying to improve high register range. However have experienced a persistent headache whenever I try pushing a little of high notes. I watched a video of a trombone player advising somewhere that one must not attempt out ones normal range notes more than 3 times. I tried to follow that advise, in fact I haven't been pushing it that a lot when I realize that most pieces played around here rarely reach an A above staff. Nonetheless I tried to reach a D an octave above the D between cleffs. To my surprise I reached the D with seeming ease. I tried again and was able to hold each note as I was coming down the scale (on a flat). Is this normal or am I doing something wrong? I read somewhere some brass players experience similar headaches, but I don't consider this a problem as it does not affect my other activities and goes away in few hours. I must say this helps me to play the G above staff with ease every time though my band colleagues sometimes either skip that note or complains after afterward. I also try to warm up though not always thoroughly. How could one handle this issue? Thanks in advance!

The issue of learning to expand your range upward as a relative beginner is much too specific or general, or simple or complicated, to provide a short answer.  But don't do things that cause headaches. Especially headaches that last for hours.

As usual, Doug is spot on. Try play high notes with the less effort possible. Better have fewer higher notes (especially as you are a beginner) but play them with less effort, meaning to look more for efficiency than sheer range, obtained by expotentially increasing the effort, thus risking hurting yourself one wayor another.

Quote from: Bcschipper on Dec 19, 2017, 11:12AMI deliberately did not include the link to Porter because he doesn't mention that the teeth should be aligned. To me this is a very essential feature.

Having the teeth aligned is important for a lot of players. For others, it's not helpful. This is one of those personal things that depends on your anatomy. There are embouchure patterns that you can learn about to help you understand more. Doug Elliott is a good resource here.

Quote from: vegasbound on Dec 24, 2017, 06:20AM
Yes Dick Nash does roll....there is also a video on you tube of Dick telling the story of how he explained how he did this to JJ Johnson when JJ decided to return to playing......

If you can, please post a link.

I find it surprising that Dick Nash would feel like he's rolling his lower lip in to ascend. Nash is a perfect example of the "low placement embouchure type." For these players the lower lip doesn't show a lower lip roll in the same way that many downstream embouchure players have. The lower lip sort of flattens out, rather than rolling in. Lloyd Leno's film is a good place to see them in slow motion.

https://youtu.be/UHq7vCihaXg

Unfortunately he doesn't show film of an upstream player above Bb4, so here are a couple of photos of upstream players playing F5.




Compare the lower lips of those players to Bill Watrous, also from Lloyd Leno's film, playing from Bb3 all the way up to Bb5.

https://youtu.be/CoxnhjLMVBo?t=6m22s

Lip position is another one of those things that's hard to generalize. Every player is going to be different, although those patterns to remain. I'd be reluctant to teach an upstream player to "roll the lower lip in," even if a textbook upstream player like Dick Nash suggests to. It really doesn't seem to be what's actually happening.

It's also why I recommend against Maggio's puckered lip routine. It doesn't appear to be what well-functioning embouchures actually do when playing and I prefer to avoid any exercises that encourages practicing in a way that isn't conducive to good playing.

Quote from: bonenick on Oct 21, 2017, 02:03AM2. Any other ideas enhancing endurance and high register besides long tones and Caruso type of exercises?

Catch a lesson with Doug or someone else with a handle on brass embouchure types and learn how your chops function correctly. It's less important what you play and more important to play correctly (for your own unique anatomy).

Dave