TromboneChat

Who is the 6h expert on the forum?...I've seen references but can't find them now. Some one who is a source for instruments and expertise...

There are a lot knowledgeable on that horn here

You might be referencing Greg Waits but what’s your question

What is it that you want to know?

Yes, ask your questions.

I'm curious about the outer slide...I have an early 60s that seems like yellow brass. I've seen some that seem to have rose brass like an 88h slide. Was there a period when that changed?

nicten310 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:28 am I'm curious about the outer slide...I have an early 60s that seems like yellow brass. I've seen some that seem to have rose brass like an 88h slide. Was there a period when that changed?

It could just be the patina of other slides making it look red. Every 6H and 10H (same as a 6H but with a Coprion bell) I've encountered (I'm a 6H whore so I've seen plenty) has had yellow slides.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:35 pm

nicten310 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:28 am I'm curious about the outer slide...I have an early 60s that seems like yellow brass. I've seen some that seem to have rose brass like an 88h slide. Was there a period when that changed?

It could just be the patina of other slides making it look red. Every 6H and 10H (same as a 6H but with a Coprion bell) I've encountered (I'm a 6H whore so I've seen plenty) has had yellow slides.

I have one from the late 50's (I think) based on the serial number of 7062xx, and the outers are definitely NOT yellow brass. They also appear to be original, with the same general lacquer wear as the bell section.

There's a debate, so i heard, about whether these tubes are gold/rose brass (Cu/Zn) or bronze (Cu/Sn).

Kevbach33 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:22 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:35 pm

It could just be the patina of other slides making it look red. Every 6H and 10H (same as a 6H but with a Coprion bell) I've encountered (I'm a 6H whore so I've seen plenty) has had yellow slides.

I have one from the late 50's (I think) based on the serial number of 7062xx, and the outers are definitely NOT yellow brass. They also appear to be original, with the same general lacquer wear as the bell section.

There's a debate, so i heard, about whether these tubes are gold/rose brass (Cu/Zn) or bronze (Cu/Sn).

New to me. Sounds like a cool horn. Greg waits would be another good source of 6H knowledge.

Could it be a Connstellation (48H) slide? At times, the combination of a 6H bell with a 48H slide was not uncommon.

I have seen a 6H with a "gold brass" slide as well. One came through my shop a couple of years ago. I remember opening the case and saying....."Cool, it looks like you had your slide done in gold-tinted lacquer!" The guy said..."Nope, the slide has no lacquer on it." Sure enough, it was a gold-brass slide. I even buffed some spots to see if the darker hue was the result of tarnish. It was definitely higher copper content when compared to my two Elkhart 6H horns (yellow brass slides). I don't think it was the typical 85% copper alloy that we see on many trombones. It was more subtle, probably about an 80% copper alloy or a bronze alloy as aforementioned.

Per Conn's 6H description:
"Outside slide is of special Conn bearing formula brass alloy. "
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn6H1960image.html

And for the 48H:
"P-27 special formula outside slides"
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn48H1968image.html

So apparently these slides were, at least at some point in their manufacturing history, made of a "special" brass alloy.

From the archives:

bellend wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:52 pm ...

I know we analysed a Conn outer slide leg to see what their P-27 alloy actually was and from memory found it was 85/15 gilding metal with the addition of 2% tin which would have the effect of making it much stronger. As far as I can recall the main commercial application for this alloy that was listed was for making fountain pen nibs.

The rolling mill that we used said you could have any formula of an old alloy re-made but the minimum quantity required would make it not economically viable for a small company, or a big one come to that!

FWIW

BellEnd

My late 40s 44H is the same - clear lacquer, outer slide not really reddish so much as a moderately dark gold, and definitely not normal yellow brass.

Yes, I have heard of the P-27 alloy, but I didn't realize it was used on trombone slides. Bellend.....thanks for the metallurgy insight on it! Conn had a lot of cool proprietary stuff in their "Glory Days." I think trombonists owe a lot of gratitude to Jake Burkle and his research team at Conn.

I always thought it was interesting that they perfected/advanced so many things in Conn's R&D department, but they never quite conquered that inner slide plating problem. We still refer to the bare spots on the old Conn inner slides as "Conn wear."

Anyway, back to these 6H outer slides. We must remember that many people ordered "custom" or "special" instruments from Conn in the 1920s-1960s. It would have been relatively easy to order a Conn 6H with a P-27 or gold brass outer slide. There are probably hundreds of "special order" trombones from that era still being used today.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:51 am From the archives:
I know we analysed a Conn outer slide leg to see what their P-27 alloy actually was and from memory found it was 85/15 gilding metal with the addition of 2% tin which would have the effect of making it much stronger. As far as I can recall the main commercial application for this alloy that was listed was for making fountain pen nibs.

My late 40s 44H is the same - clear lacquer, outer slide not really reddish so much as a moderately dark gold, and definitely not normal yellow brass.
[/quote]

It appears that Conn 88H slides may have been drawn of the same P-27 alloy:
"Outside [88H] slides made of special Conn formula brass alloy"
"8½" red brass bell"
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn88H1969image.html

This may explain why my 88H slide looks "rosy" but not the same color as its "red brass" bell.

Same appearance on 6H and 48H slides I've seen.

My '63 6H has gold brass outers.

I have a 1962 6H in the Classifieds now. It has a gold brass outer slide and a yellow brass bell. Hi-res photo links are in the ad.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:01 pm Yes, I have heard of the P-27 alloy, but I didn't realize it was used on trombone slides. Bellend.....thanks for the metallurgy insight on it! Conn had a lot of cool proprietary stuff in their "Glory Days." I think trombonists owe a lot of gratitude to Jake Burkle and his research team at Conn.

Anyway, back to these 6H outer slides. We must remember that many people ordered "custom" or "special" instruments from Conn in the 1920s-1960s. It would have been relatively easy to order a Conn 6H with a P-27 or gold brass outer slide. There are probably hundreds of "special order" trombones from that era still being used today.

At least according to the Conn catalogs of the time (1950s-1960s) the P-27 "special alloy" slides were the standard, not a custom order. I think this alloy (~84% copper / ~14% zinc / ~2% tin) is what we call "gold brass." Not as yellow as a 6H bell, not as red as an 88H bell.

Any metallurgists have additional knowledge beyond BellEnd's helpful contribution?

By the way, I am fortunate enough to have several vintage Conn trombones (1930s-1970s) with zero plating loss ("Conn wear") on their inner slides. Luck, or careful maintenance (and trauma-free) over the years?

Posaunus is correct. The P27 alloy was standard on ALL "professional" Conn trombones. Yellow brass was the exception.

There must have been some very specific years in which the P-27 alloy was “standard.” All of my professional Elkhart Conn outer slides (6H, 8H and 72H) are yellow brass.

I've not seen any Elkhart production with yellow brass outer tubes. Only Abilene production, based on a sample size in the tripple digits.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:17 pm There must have been some very specific years in which the P-27 alloy was “standard.” All of my professional Elkhart Conn outer slides (6H, 8H and 72H) are yellow brass.

The color of these slides can be deceiving, depending on the light in the room. In my practice room, with artificial light, they look sort of yellow. But with natural light, or in the sun, it's clear that they have a darker (pink/orange/red?) tinge. Nowhere near as "red" as my 88H bell, but definitely not as yellow as a 6H bell (or other yellow brass bells). (N.B., all my Conn trombones are Elkhart - 6H, 79H, 88H, 71H.)

Hmmm!?! This thread has really caught my attention! I always thought that the outer tubes on Elkhart Conn professional models were a mix of alloys. I also assumed that the outer slides on all of my Elkhart Conn trombones were the original tubes. Posaunus and Hornbuilder have me rethinking this! I got all of my Elkhart Conns out today and did some data collecting:

Conn 6H Serial # 945xxx (1962) This horn is in original lacquer and the tint of the entire instrument has darkened over the past 50 years. To my eyes, the bell and slide have always looked the same color (I assumed both were yellow brass). I buffed the lacquer off a small section of the outer slide today and behold.... it does have a slight golden hue. The old lacquer muted the difference in color. To my surprise, this outer slide is the P-27 alloy!

Conn 6H Serial # 973XXX (1963) I had this slide silver-plated back in the 1990s, so this one will remain a mystery.

Conn 8H Serial # 238XXX (1930) The outer tubes on this slide are definitely yellow brass. However, this slide was made in the early 1930s, so it was probably before the P-27 alloy was introduced.

Conn 88H Serial #C74XXX (1964). The outer tubes on this are definitely yellow brass. These tubes are in immaculate shape. Now I am wondering if the previous owner had new tubes put on it.

Conn 72H Serial # 937XXX These outer are also yellow brass and also in immaculate shape. I bought this horn from the same person as the 88H. I am speculating that these tubes could have been replaced by the previously owner as well.

I am now wondering if some parts of my trombone slides are not original equipment. While it would be nice to have authentic parts on these instruments, I’m not going to make any changes on these horns... they are terrific players!

Correction.....

My 88H is a C 64XXX

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:41 pm
Conn 8H Serial # 238XXX (1930) The outer tubes on this slide are definitely yellow brass. However, this slide was made in the early 1930s, so it was probably before the P-27 alloy was introduced.

So I just found this thread and have something to contribute. I have a 78H from around the same time that has P-27 marked on the outer slide…so it seems like maybe it was still a “special order” at that time. Perhaps it got to be so popular that it became standard? I actually found this thread by doing a Google search for P-27 because I was curious about what it referred to.

This thread has definitely sensitized me to the P-27 slides. In the past year, I have noticed that ALL of the Elkhart Conn slides that have come through my shop have been the P-27 alloy. It must have been a winning recipe for Conn. The alloy keeps the sound dark, but the hardening or tempering make the metal harder. The harder metal can be drawn to a thinner gauge, which keeps the slides lighter and more nimble.

That's interesting, on the Conn Loyalist site there is a quote from some Conn literature where they "selected this after two years of research and testing."

On another note... not to take this thread on a complete tangent (maybe I should just start a new thread...) now that I've figured out what the P-27 mark refers to, there are a couple markings on this 78H bell section that I'm not sure about.

There's an "8L" on each tuning slide ferrule on the bell side...I'm guessing that was to make sure the correct parts went back together in the manufacturing process.

But, there's a "5" above the 78H mark near where the bell section joins to the slide section. There is no matching "5" on the slide, so I'm really not sure what that would be for. Any ideas?

8L could be upside down 78.

That is a good thought---but the font used is one where you can tell the difference between the L and an upside down 7.

After looking at it again, the 8 may be to indicate an 8" bell (since the early 78H had several bell size options) and the L is probably a mark to make sure the right parts went back together.

I'm still not sure about the "5" mark on the bell section end...

For what it is worth, I played with a an old timer (WWII vet, actually, combat engineer) that was employed by local music stores here. He said there was a period when Conn mis-marked a lot of horns. He would have known since he was there.

He claimed to have owned a 6H that was marked 5H. I had what we always thought was a 78H but the actual marking was difficult to read. Another horn that I wish that I had kept. Now I have horns that perhaps I should be rid of. it is all good.

My 1926 78h has 1L on tuning slide and another just below. Oversize 8 1/2" bell so I don't think that marking has anything to do with bell size. Factory mark to match up the parts I'm guessing.
Also has a star on the outer slide near the serial and model number. And just under the receiver has an 11. And on the top of the outer slide a 1.
No p-27.

I thought the topic title was a video game spinoff of Guitar Hero. "Conn 6 "Ace""

Addition of tin makes it a bronze

calcbone wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:24 pm That is a good thought---but the font used is one where you can tell the difference between the L and an upside down 7.

After looking at it again, the 8 may be to indicate an 8" bell (since the early 78H had several bell size options) and the L is probably a mark to make sure the right parts went back together.

I'm still not sure about the "5" mark on the bell section end...

Interesting. The 78H I just bought has the exact same markings. Maybe I bought your old horn.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:01 pmI always thought it was interesting that they perfected/advanced so many things in Conn's R&D department, but they never quite conquered that inner slide plating problem. We still refer to the bare spots on the old Conn inner slides as "Conn wear."

The "Conn Wear" is, I'm convinced, a combination of two different problems.

1) The inner slide tubes produced by Conn at that time we're not "barreled" as most modern slide tubes are, where the transition from the stocking to the tube relief is not smoothened before plating. This leaves a high point on the beginning of the stocking where the outer tubes will wear heavily as they tilt downward in the outer positions.

2) The stockings of the tubes are not properly aligned with the rest of the inner tubes. This exaggerates wear patterns.

Page out of a middle 60’s Conn Product Manual.

The 88H page in the Conn product manual in the classifieds mentions the P-27 alloy used in the slides, so it must have been standard during that time.