Underbite/Upstream Embouchure & High Range

[jtbtrombonist]

Hello all,

I have an underbite and upstream embouchure, and I've been struggling to play anything higher than a G4. My high range has been the hardest thing to master. I really started working on it in 8th grade and nothing has really changed in the last 9 years. It's almost as if my high range has a cap. My low range on the other hand is fabulous! My horn won't let me player lower than its lowest note (which is a false tone) sharp double pedal A. I know there are other people who have experienced this and I would like to know how you dealt with this. If I'm being honest, I would like to switch to bass trombone at some point, but not until I know that it is completely possible or completely impossible to master high range with an underbite and upstream embouchure.

[harrisonreed]

You probably have a cup width that restricts what your embouchure naturally needs to do to play in the upper register.

I might be wrong, but I believe upstream players do better on narrower cups.

[Burgerbob]

I play with an upstream player with the one of the best, most clear high ranges I've ever heard. It's definitely possible. Get a lesson with Doug Elliot to figure out what the issue may be.

That reminds me, I need to get another one...

[Doug Elliott]

Contact me for a Skype lesson. I know how to teach upstream but I have to see what you're doing now to offer any valid advice.

I general, upstream embouchures are capable of great high range and low range if everything is correct. It's just sometimes hard to get all the details working right.

Dave Wilkin is a member here who is upstream and he'll probably reply too.

[Redthunder]

I'm an upstream player with an overbite rather than an underbite. I also struggled with range for a long time, but unlike you, I never had a good low range. My upper range was usable through a lot of mashing my lips in a 12C and hoping for the best. Definitely get a lesson with Doug, but to generalize what helped me really figure out how to work things out for myself was, in no particular order:

-Playing with wet chops (this was a huge adjustment for me, I always played dry which contributed to the mashing of my chops and causing a ton of swelling and endurance problems)
-Free buzzing for a short time each day
-Constantly reinforcing the best way of preparing to play (Firm the chops, place the mouthpiece, breath through the nose or mouth corners, then blow. You may already be doing this.)
-Slurs, lots of them, starting with breath attacks, from the upper or mid-upper register down to the mid and low register and back up again with one breath, no breaks or opportunities to shift the mouthpiece
-Tonguing behind the teeth, rather than between them, which is what I did for mid and low register notes to get them to speak clearly

As Doug said, without seeing your playing, it's going to just be guesswork to know what will work for you. Some of these things may be applicable to you, some maybe not. All I know is that I was in very rough shape for a long time, but thanks to knowledgeable individuals like Doug and Dave Wilken, I was able to take my playing to a much higher level than I really had ever imagined.

Lastly, be patient and be diligent about practicing. I had so many things to correct about my playing that it took a long time, months and months, to start to feel like things were really starting to work correctly, but the payoff was worth it.

[Vegasbound]

Contact me for a Skype lesson. I know how to teach upstream but I have to see what you're doing now to offer any valid advice.

I general, upstream embouchures are capable of great high range and low range if everything is correct. It's just sometimes hard to get all the details working right.

Dave Wilkin is a member here who is upstream and he'll probably reply too.

This ^^^^^^^^. Have a lesson with Doug

[Wilktone]

I have an underbite and upstream embouchure, and I've been struggling to play anything higher than a G4. My high range has been the hardest thing to master.

I'm the upstream player Doug mentioned above. He sorted out my chops in a lesson back in the mid 90's. If you have the opportunity to catch a lesson with him (he does teach video lessons), I highly recommend it. I also have an underbite and play with my lower jaw receded. For me, the upper register works as my "foundation" and tends to be more stable than my very low register. I play tenor trombone (primarily small bore), but did play bass trombone in grad school. It's definitely possible to play the entire rage with this embouchure type.

You say you have an upstream embouchure, but the first thing I would want to know is whether or not you actually do. The embouchure's air stream direction is a factor of how high or low the mouthpiece is placed on the lips. If you place the mouthpiece much lower on the lips (so there is more lower lip inside the mouthpiece) then the embouchure is upstream.

Here is a web page that has some photos and videos I've taken of different upstream brass players so that you can see what this looks like:

https://wilktone.com/?page_id=5730

Assuming that you do have an upstream embouchure, a lot of "low placement" type players work harder than they need to because they don't place the mouthpiece low enough. A more centered placement will make it easier to play the low range, but not the high range. I've found that when this is the case, moving the mouthpiece placement even lower and working on the high range first works better in the long term. You can learn how to play your entire range with the high range setting, but it really helps to see how it's working to offer any specific advice.

If you're able to post some closeup video of your chops while playing I'm willing to take a close look and give you some basic advice. I'll reiterate that a lesson with Doug Elliott will be more thorough than that, though.

I might be wrong, but I believe upstream players do better on narrower cups.

Doug has a much better understanding of equipment and embouchure types than I do, so hopefully he'll correct any mistakes here. I personally play on an Elliott C cup for jazz and a G cup for symphonic playing, for what that's worth. A lot of upstream players will find their tone to be on the brighter side and if they want a darker sound will choose bigger cups. Again, Doug can give you better advice on mouthpieces than I can, but he would want to see you play first.

Dave

[Basbasun]

Link to youtube clip with Åke Person and Dick Nasch, both low placement, Åke had big underbite, both did have great range and very good sound. Dick did play very good bass trombone too.
As with all brass players, what works for some may not work for others, if you do get help from Doug you may find what works for you.

PS Dick played Bach 6 1/2 AL Åke played Conn 3 mouthpieces.

[harrisonreed]

I might be wrong, but I believe upstream players do better on narrower cups.

Doug has a much better understanding of equipment and embouchure types than I do, so hopefully he'll correct any mistakes here. I personally play on an Elliott C cup for jazz and a G cup for symphonic playing, for what that's worth. A lot of upstream players will find their tone to be on the brighter side and if they want a darker sound will choose bigger cups. Again, Doug can give you better advice on mouthpieces than I can, but he would want to see you play first.

Dave

Sorry, terminology again. I'm talking about the width of the cup (ie inner rim dimensions on DE systems), not the depth. I could be totally wrong about what works better for upstream players.

Any of those cups you named have the exact same width. I say "narrow cup", because "narrow rim" could mean a lot of different things -- the cup is narrow, or the rim profile width is narrow. I always take it to mean rim profile (XT106 vs XT106N)

[Doug Elliott]

Size preference is a very individual thing for upstream. No rules.