Hey Doug, I really need your help and insight on the matter. Others too!!!

ttf_Georgilocks · Post by **ttf_Georgilocks** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:02 pm

So I was reading an article regarding different embouchure types and the author stated that he first understood the correlation between the anatomical features of the face and the embouchure through you. From this, I really wanted to ask for your help in possibly offering some advice on my playing because it is slightly out of the ordinary. I know that it is best to probably sit down with the player, but I would really like advice from someone who is quite knowledgeable on the correlation between facial anatomy and playing(not saying my teachers don't cut it), regardless of the circumstances. With all that being said, I'll start describing my playing techniques. To start of with, I feel like I have a pretty unique facial structure when it comes to brass playing. I am of Indian ethnicity,which could mean that my jaw structure, arrangement of the teeth and facial structure is probably different than many of the great brass teachers and players. I was first taught to use a "Ta" articulation and I basically used it all the way up to the end of my sophomore year in high school. The issue I had with this syllable was that it always resulted in jaw motion in my mouth if I tried to play faster and with a harder attack. Double tonguing was virtually impossible and after long hours of trying to clean it, I came to a conclusion that it was not me "ignoring" the brass playing fundamentals on keeping a solid stream of air and etc., but rather it had something to do with my facial anatomy. Luckily, I sat next to THE best high school trombonist(first chair Allstate) in our state. Since his articulation was always so clean and effortless, I asked him how he did it. He gave me a lot of advice but one of the key things he said was that he kept his tongue as close to the teeth as possible. I started experimenting with that and it just happened to work for me. The syllable "thu" is what I use right now and it results in zero jaw motion, a very open and dark sound and also it helps keep the air stream flowing. It does sometimes result in hard articulations, but it still is very crisp and clear. Also just to keep in mind, my tongue just happens to be very large but the space in my mouth is not very big. This may be why "thu' works for me. It keeps my mouth always open for a nice sound. But since I'm using this unorthodox method, It is kind of hard for me to figure out what I need to do for increasing my range and just building consistency. It also does not sound the best occasionally in some partials, as it kind of sounds like I'm splitting it. I really help in figuring out how with this method I should change the shape of my tongue to reach higher partials. Also, legato does not work with"thu" so I use my "ta" articulation for that. During my current marching band season, I have been experimenting with different mouthpiece placements to best accommodate the direction my air comes out as a result of my articulation. Also skipping partials, happens to be one of my greater weaknesses as well. I understand this is pretty lengthy and it may be hard to decipher what I might be even asking, but overall, I really want to know what will work best for my current technique right now. What I can say is that as I ascend,the tip of my tongue goes downward and then after a certain partial I have to move the tip back very far. How should my tongue change to direct the air stream as I ascend if I am using "thu"?? Random statement: Trumpet probably would have been ideal for my structure.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:52 pm

There's really no way for me to guess about any of that without seeing you play. That's why I do lessons by Skype.

I would try to settle what's going on outside first, then inside. You may be going about it backwards. Tongue position and manipulation is important, but it's only part of the equation and really a secondary part.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:52 pm

Get a Skype lesson from Doug. It's rare to see so many positive reviews on someone's teaching but I very rarely hear anything negative at all about what Doug has to say. It will be much better than asking for written advice.

On the small chance it's helpful, I thought I would offer you my thoughts written down anyway.

I personally have a habit of over thinking when I play and practice. The term"paralysis by analysis" was said to me by one of my teachers very early on but I think it's only recently that I have really started to get a grasp on what that actually means.
Whilst I believe it is extremely important to experiment in the practice room, and by that I mean try new physical/mental techniques and explore what you are capable of, I think there is a reason that the majority of high level trombone performers that I know advocate "thinking" less when playing.

I do not think it is helpful to be worrying about what specific physical motion you "should" be doing for a specific way of playing. Focus on the sound of what you are going for in your head and simply play around with your practice until you notice that you are getting closer to what you want. When you realise you have made an improvement, take note of what you did and how your body felt. It doesn't need to be excessive, simply something like "more air" "faster air" "relaxed tongue" etc... It doesn't matter, as long as you identify what you did that was different so you can reproduce it if required.

If you are constantly thinking that your tongue is a "problem" then chances are it will be much harder to solve if it actually is one. Stick something positive to focus on in your head, rather than something negative. You might be surprised.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:26 am

So many people seem obsessed with output and underestimate input. Listening and watching great playing is one of the real keys to development as a brass player. The OP admits that contact with a good player has made a big difference.... much more is needed.
We would all like to think that we are missing some important key that will unleash an amazing player that we know is inside.....
That key is practise.
Everyone is unique and their journey through music will be unique.... accept that and move on.
Do not become focussed on process alone. Listen and watch and allow you brain to move things in the right direction by trying to copy great playing. Do not pull apart, put your mind and body back together.

Chris Stearn

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:09 am

Trumpet or trombone - the issue remains.

Chris is right on the money, as always. We are all unique in one or another way and we have to adapt our playing both to our anatomy and the metal in front of us.

Arching the tongue and hitting upper jaw the teeth with the upper front part of your tongue may help (as in "tiu" kind of articulation, cf. Arban and french school of brass articulation).

Hope that helps. Cleaning articulation is not an easier, nor a quick job to do.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:32 am

Quote from: blast on Sep 28, 2017, 12:26AMSo many people seem obsessed with output and underestimate input. Listening and watching great playing is one of the real keys to development as a brass player. The OP admits that contact with a good player has made a big difference.... much more is needed.
We would all like to think that we are missing some important key that will unleash an amazing player that we know is inside.....
That key is practise.
Everyone is unique and their journey through music will be unique.... accept that and move on.
Do not become focussed on process alone. Listen and watch and allow you brain to move things in the right direction by trying to copy great playing. Do not pull apart, put your mind and body back together.

Chris Stearn

Im trying to be objective but I think thats the most wise word about trombone and music I heard here! We need words like this from time to time so let it come more Chris!

Leif

ttf_patrickosmith · Post by **ttf_patrickosmith** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:58 am

I found this series of TED talks to be relevant to trombone practice and performance:

"Practice makes perfect"
http://www.ted.com/playlists/497/

The first 2 segments (out of 9) are most helpful and relevant. The first few minutes of the first segment (entitled "Practice Makes Perfect") will be a wake-up call to any serious musician suffering from stagnation.

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:00 am

Quote from: patrickosmith on Sep 28, 2017, 02:58AMI found this series of TED talks to be relevant to trombone practice and performance:

"Practice makes perfect"
http://www.ted.com/playlists/497/

The first 2 segments (out of 9) are most helpful and relevant. The first few minutes of the first segment (entitled "Practice Makes Perfect") will be a wake-up call to any serious musician suffering from stagnation.

I just watched the first one. Bingo!

--Andy in OKC

ttf_Wilktone · Post by **ttf_Wilktone** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:56 am

QuoteSo I was reading an article regarding different embouchure types and the author stated that he first understood the correlation between the anatomical features of the face and the embouchure through you.
It seems likely that you read something I posted on my blog about Doug's embouchure types. If so, I would like you to send me the link so I can make a correction to it and make it clearer. I don't believe that it is possible to simply look at a player's anatomy and make accurate predictions about the player's embouchure. In fact, my dissertation research actually came up with the opposite conclusion. There are simply too many factors at work together. This is why you have to watch a brass musician play in order to offer targeted advice.

Catch a lesson with Doug, in person if you can, but via Skype if that's the only way. What's so effective about his teaching is that he is able to pinpoint things in your playing that can be improved and give you specific advice on what to do to make those corrections. Practice time being as valuable as it is, it is more efficient (in my opinion) than simply trying to go for the end result all the time without understanding the mechanics of how to get there. It allows you to work on your corrections in a shorter amount of your available practice time and you can spend more time integrating it into the whole and work on making music later.

Dave

ttf_Georgilocks · Post by **ttf_Georgilocks** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:39 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Sep 27, 2017, 07:52PMThere's really no way for me to guess about any of that without seeing you play. That's why I do lessons by Skype.

I would try to settle what's going on outside first, then inside. You may be going about it backwards. Tongue position and manipulation is important, but it's only part of the equation and really a secondary part.

Okay thank you for taking the time to respond. I am just an amateur, but I am very analytical when it comes to a lot of things, not just brass playing. I always try to figure out the "why", especially if things are not working for me, even after long hours of practice. I did figure out yesterday that my natural stream of air when blowing out when relaxed is actually upstream. When I play however, I have always used the downstream. Something to experiment with I guess. I will try and see if a lesson is possible.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:36 pm

Yikes

ttf_patrickosmith · Post by **ttf_patrickosmith** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:51 am

Quote from: afugate on Sep 28, 2017, 04:00AMI just watched the first one. Bingo!

--Andy in OKC

OK ... now watch the second segment. It elaborates solely on one important concept (very briefly alluded to in the first segment). It will really drive home an important point regarding the cause of stagnation.

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:04 am

Quote from: patrickosmith on Sep 29, 2017, 02:51AMOK ... now watch the second segment. It elaborates solely on one important concept (very briefly alluded to in the first segment). It will really drive home an important point regarding the cause of stagnation.

Watching it now. I absolutely agree.

Praise process / progress / effort. (This concept equally applies to gifted and talented kids.)

--Andy in OKC

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:55 am

Quote from: afugate on Sep 29, 2017, 04:04AM

Praise process / progress / effort.

--Andy in OKC

Ah praise, yes... I remember that!

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:55 am

Process....
More important than result....
Because you actually learn something from it.

The opposite of all mainstream brass teaching.

*EDIT*
More important than IMMEDIATE result. You should know how you got there, in a repeatable way.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:42 am

Perhaps just taking lessons from a teacher who is known to get results injects a little bit of "yet" into your mindset.

ttf_Georgilocks · Post by **ttf_Georgilocks** » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:13 pm

Recently, following the end of marching season, I went back to my scheduled lessons as I now had the luxury of time. However, many of the changes which I made in my playing, was not met with the the reaction I had expected. My instructor noticed that my mouthpiece placement was lower on lips and he believed it could be detrimental to my overall tone and playing abilities. My lips also had a tendency to roll in when I used this placement. He advised me to use the 2/3 upper lip and 1/3 lower lip placement. I was a little frustrated at first, but I began to try this placement. At first, it was very unnatural and it actually hurt my teeth. I experimented with for a VERY long time and I must admit that it helps create a fuller tone and forced me to open my throat up for certain it. I want to continue using it but I physically cannot even hit notes past the B-flat on the staff. I've tried a lot of things, but either my tongue is just to big or what, but it just sounds disgusting when I attempt the high notes. Also, the placement doesn't sit to well on my face when I try to move the slide and everything. I don't know what to do. Region band auditions and our concert season is now in rapid fire, and a drastic change like this could either benefit if I figure it out or it could be my downfall. Please help because I recently spent a very long time trying to do fundamentals such as slurring, long tones and tongue with this placement but it just has been a big failure. I honestly don't know what to do.

ttf_patrickosmith · Post by **ttf_patrickosmith** » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:20 am

Quote from: Georgilocks on Nov 04, 2017, 05:13PM--snip--
I don't know what to do. Region band auditions and our concert season is now in rapid fire, and a drastic change like this could either benefit if I figure it out or it could be my downfall. Please help because I recently spent a very long time trying to do fundamentals such as slurring, long tones and tongue with this placement but it just has been a big failure. I honestly don't know what to do.

One thing *not* to do is to attempt to force something according to the pressures of a deadline. It is very counterproductive. There can be no expectation of a timeline by which some capability will be met. Over-practicing is especially counterproductive. There is no substitute to regular, disciplined practice without the expectation of improvement on a fixed timeline provided that the instruction you are getting is the best available to you.

One other thing *not* to do if you are serious about improving: marching band ... ever. I had a great experience in the Northwestern University marching band, but, it seriously took a dent out of my development trajectory.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:22 am

I would know what to do in 5 minutes if I saw you on Skype.

Without seeing you I have no answers.

ttf_Georgilocks · Post by **ttf_Georgilocks** » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:06 am

How exactly can we arrange that?

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:03 am

Quote from: Georgilocks on Nov 14, 2017, 08:06AMHow exactly can we arrange that?

Click on his name, send him a PM (private message.)

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 14, 2017, 09:03AMClick on his name, send him a PM (private message.)
Or you could just google him. Skype name and phone number is readily available:

http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/

DOUG ELLIOTT MOUTHPIECES
13619 Layhill Rd
Silver Spring, Maryland 20906

DEMouthpieces on Skype or (at) aol.com
phone 301-871-3535
fax 301-598-9094

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:32 am

He really is very accessible, even to us amateurs. (I put off seeing him for years thinking he taught only people at higher levels than me - turns out he's just as accommodating to those of us without advanced skills.)

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:03 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 14, 2017, 10:32AMHe really is very accessible, even to us amateurs. (I put off seeing him for years thinking he taught only people at higher levels than me - turns out he's just as accommodating to those of us without advanced skills.)

I second this. Doug was more than accommodating to me. Almost assuredly the best money I've spent on anything trombone related.

-- Andy in OKC

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:03 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Nov 14, 2017, 10:32AMHe really is very accessible, even to us amateurs. (I put off seeing him for years thinking he taught only people at higher levels than me - turns out he's just as accommodating to those of us without advanced skills.)

I second this. Doug was more than accommodating to me. Almost assuredly the best money I've spent on anything trombone related.

-- Andy in OKC