TromboneChat

There has been some recent interest in Besson 10-10 trombones so here is a link to a 1958 catalogue with all the brass instruments which were for the American market.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/10gl6dk11bhz5ai/Besson%201958.pdf?dl=0

Cheers

Stewbones

Thanks for posting.  I got a silver 10-10 around 1966 and played it through high school and in several Salvation Army bands.  I sold it to my best friend in high school just before I graduated and have regretted it ever since.  He played it in the US Navy and then his son took it to high school and college.  Last time I saw him I asked if I could see it and he admitted it had gotten in really poor shape though he was thinking about getting it refinished.

I came across a new-old-stock 2-20 but the gentleman who had it wanted $1,200 for it.

We do stupid things when we're young.

Quote from: walldaja on Oct 10, 2017, 11:54AM
I came across a new-old-stock 2-20 but the gentleman who had it wanted $1,200 for it.

We do stupid things when we're young.

We can do stupid things when we are older so beware, $1200 for a student horn is way too much. If it is new old stock then $500 would be as high as I would go. It is a small bore horn rather like the old Conn 14H, but much stronger. An ideal Marching Band horn!

Cheers

Stewbones

Quote from: walldaja on Oct 10, 2017, 11:54AMThanks for posting.  I got a silver 10-10 around 1966 and played it through high school and in several Salvation Army bands.  I sold it to my best friend in high school just before I graduated and have regretted it ever since.  He played it in the US Navy and then his son took it to high school and college.  Last time I saw him I asked if I could see it and he admitted it had gotten in really poor shape though he was thinking about getting it refinished.

I came across a new-old-stock 2-20 but the gentleman who had it wanted $1,200 for it.

We do stupid things when we're young.

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,102579.0.html

This may be of interest to anyone looking for a 10-10. The Boosey and Hawkes "Imperial" 523A is a badge-engineered version of the 10-10.
Rumour was that the Besson name was better regarded in the US where Boosey and Hawkes were considered to be a purely British focused manufacturer aiming only at the British Military and Brass Band scene, so instruments for the US market were Bessons but identical instruments for the UK market were either brand. 10-10s were not officially sold in the UK but you could buy an identical B&H Imperial 523 or a Besson Academy.

Cheers

Stewbones

Cheers

Stewbones

Quote from: Stewbones43 on Oct 14, 2017, 09:24AMhttp://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,102579.0.html

This may be of interest to anyone looking for a 10-10. The Boosey and Hawkes "Imperial" 523A is a badge-engineered version of the 10-10.
Rumour was that the Besson name was better regarded in the US where Boosey and Hawkes were considered to be a purely British focused manufacturer aiming only at the British Military and Brass Band scene, so instruments for the US market were Bessons but identical instruments for the UK market were either brand. 10-10s were not officially sold in the UK but you could buy an identical B&H Imperial 523 or a Besson Academy.


Oh good to know. I just recently picked one up (satin silver plated) from a surplus store for really low price (for the condition) at $199. I believe it was used in the Canadian military. I had played 10-10 before, too, but since it is silver plated I wasn't sure if the slide was nickel or not. It does feel somewhat lighter than how I remember 10-10 to have played, though.

It sure is pretty!

Hi MaestroHound,
That looks to be a very nice B&H "Imperial" but is it the 523 version? It is difficult to judge sizes on photographs so here are some clues to help.

Standard "Imperial" bore was 0.487in and bell was around 7.25in; 523 was 0.523in bore and 8in bell. The 523 had a spring loaded hand slide(Sometimes removed!) the standard "Imperial" had plain bumpers(cork or fabric)

The width of the bell section makes me think that yours is the standard model; think a cross between a King 2B and an Abrams Tank. It will play lead trombone in a big band or front row in a college marching band!

Cheers

Stewbones

Quote from: Stewbones43 on Oct 14, 2017, 02:02PMHi MaestroHound,
That looks to be a very nice B&H "Imperial" but is it the 523 version? It is difficult to judge sizes on photographs so here are some clues to help.

Standard "Imperial" bore was 0.487in and bell was around 7.25in; 523 was 0.523in bore and 8in bell. The 523 had a spring loaded hand slide(Sometimes removed!) the standard "Imperial" had plain bumpers(cork or fabric)

The width of the bell section makes me think that yours is the standard model; think a cross between a King 2B and an Abrams Tank. It will play lead trombone in a big band or front row in a college marching band!


Yes, it is a 523--says 523A on the bell (not sure what "A" stands for. "America" for North America exports, "Army" for military production, or??), and the bore is a hair smaller than lower leg of Yamaha 456G (.525"), so .523" sounds about right. Bell is 8" as well. Yes, spring loaded bumper--still there. I would love to try the "standard" version, too, if I get a chance, though!

I hadn't realised that some of the Besson and Boosey & Hawkes instruments were the same. Was this true for the entire ranges or just a few instruments? Did this change with time?

This catalogue was an interesting read. Besson were not lying about the response and slide (lightning quick even before slide lubricant is added). Thank you for posting it.

Good for you with the much rarer 523(A) "Imperial".

Sorry I can't help with the significance of the "A" after the 523.

The standard small bore "Imperial" is not uncommon on UK Ebay but beware, many are the older, converted high pitch models and most will have had a pretty rough life.

The Besson 8-10 shown in the catalogue link at the start of this thread was the same as the small bore "Imperial", as was the Besson "Academy 402".

My 10-10 had an aftermarket F section added, possibly by Paxmans, the UK French Horn makers.

Cheers

Stewbones

Quote from: Goddardo on Oct 15, 2017, 05:25AMI hadn't realised that some of the Besson and Boosey & Hawkes instruments were the same. Was this true for the entire ranges or just a few instruments? Did this change with time?

This catalogue was an interesting read. Besson were not lying about the response and slide (lightning quick even before slide lubricant is added). Thank you for posting it.

Hi Mark,
Following the amalgamation of Boosey and Hawkes with Besson UK in 1948, the companies soon rationalised their product ranges.

The B&H student line was "Regent" and the Besson equivalent was "Westminster". These covered all brass band instruments and Bb trumpets.

The B&H intermediate or step-up line was "Emperor" and the Besson was "Stratford". There were trumpet, cornet and tenor trombone(Bb and Bb/F) models in these ranges.

The B&H professional line was the "Imperial" and the Besson line was "New Standard" for valved instruments and "Academy" for trombones although some trombones, especially the older G bass trombones were "New Standard" models. The 8-10 was a professional line.

All the above models were identical within their 3 groups except for engraving and valve caps and finger buttons. There were different counter weights on the trombones also.

French horns were covered by imported student models under the Lafleur/Alliance label and there was an "Imperial" full double horn which was a clone of the Alexander 103 model with the 6 port rotary change valve. I have no information about any Besson equivalent to the "Imperial" horn.

B&H and Besson did their own separate ranges for some special professional models. Besson did a range of "Symphony" trumpets in various keys and a line of commercial trumpets labelled "New Creation" Their 10-10 range was made for the US market (see the catalogue link above). B&H did trumpets and trombones under the "Sessionair" label which were aimed at commercial players and the trumpets were endorsed by the likes of Kenny Baker and Eddie Calvert. They only made 52 trombones; 50 were the standard range and 2 were experimental ones. I have one of the experimental models.

There were many other models which surface from time to time. These tend to be student line instruments with names such as Oxford, Cambridge, Varsity, 78, 35, 2-20, and Clippertone (a resurrected name from the old Hawkes company pre 1931.

There may have been others which I have yet to learn about.

Cheers

Stewbones

I ACTUALLY  HAD SOMEONE  ASK FOR A 10 10 THIS SPRING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
=================
WENT TO SPAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------ in  searching the  bunker and the  ships  hold 00deep in  the salt caverns of strategic materials  besides the canisters  of  civil defense rations
 AHA !!!!  a 10-10--in lacquer  ---the most difficult situation was the case  tattered   by BOER WAR  remains  and  russian front  battlefield pickups
oh  how the  hours flew in the  case rebuild  !!!!!!!!
 having  grown up  playing  a 10$$ besson  found abandoned  with  brittle flaking off  laq  in a  gatorish slick leather  bound case in  the band room
  nickle outers--massively heavy  weight  ----played so much by me that i wore a  hole  thru the outer  --stilll played by me --once  frequently shined w brasso
    with a flat black  flare [ala  jj]    in plumed  hats  and tall  bear  skin  type   hats --oh how i love this  horn  ---
 forgotten  //obscure //passed over//unknown --so i have  collected  as  many  i can  find  ---knowing exactly what to look for 
--------------
  the 10-10  even  more obscure !!!
-----------
  after  the search  for THE  SPANISH TREASURE and its shipping  --  up in the high  place under the eves  in the art house --protected by dust  --in a  martin case
  MINT CONDITION 10-10!!!   and in the  shipping room  --another in silver plate  !!!!!!
-----------
 actually  ''OLD BESSIE  --AKA -OLD BLACK MAGIC '' is a plain bell -small bell --there being several  variations  after  --up until the year of disaster 1958
  when thereafter the  massively heavy weights were soldered on
----------------
  meanwhile  the euphoniums  ruled  ever  and forever   3 speed raleighs    austin healy   cooper  bodied pre crewe  autos
 so much  change  --much  for  the better  --but in many  way  elegance  and manners  well  speech    poetic  thought humour --how sad  my spelling  of  words i would use
  thespelling  has  fallen    beehind       and once i used ONLY FOUNTAIN PENS   !!!!!!!
----------
 SO BESSON AFFFECIANATAUTOS --TAKE HEART  !!!!!!!  and brave  the brass beaters -save  from recycling  the old thing  -relish in the tatters --AMERIKKKA  is going thru and will continue
  to follow   the grande empire -as the  power of the orient    yellow menace in  time  will perhaps overshadow  the  bird with  white head
 ---------
 i really  love  my BENTLEY --  but at least i can use  OLD BESSIE  !!!!!!!!

I ACTUALLY  HAD SOMEONE  ASK FOR A 10 10 THIS SPRING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
=================
WENT TO SPAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------ in  searching the  bunker and the  ships  hold 00deep in  the salt caverns of strategic materials  besides the canisters  of  civil defense rations
 AHA !!!!  a 10-10--in lacquer  ---the most difficult situation was the case  tattered   by BOER WAR  remains  and  russian front  battlefield pickups
oh  how the  hours flew in the  case rebuild  !!!!!!!!
 having  grown up  playing  a 10$$ besson  found abandoned  with  brittle flaking off  laq  in a  gatorish slick leather  bound case in  the band room
  nickle outers--massively heavy  weight  ----played so much by me that i wore a  hole  thru the outer  --stilll played by me --once  frequently shined w brasso
    with a flat black  flare [ala  jj]    in plumed  hats  and tall  bear  skin  type   hats --oh how i love this  horn  ---
 forgotten  //obscure //passed over//unknown --so i have  collected  as  many  i can  find  ---knowing exactly what to look for 
--------------
  the 10-10  even  more obscure !!!
-----------
  after  the search  for THE  SPANISH TREASURE and its shipping  --  up in the high  place under the eves  in the art house --protected by dust  --in a  martin case
  MINT CONDITION 10-10!!!   and in the  shipping room  --another in silver plate  !!!!!!
-----------
 actually  ''OLD BESSIE  --AKA -OLD BLACK MAGIC '' is a plain bell -small bell --there being several  variations  after  --up until the year of disaster 1958
  when thereafter the  massively heavy weights were soldered on
----------------
  meanwhile  the euphoniums  ruled  ever  and forever   3 speed raleighs    austin healy   cooper  bodied pre crewe  autos
 so much  change  --much  for  the better  --but in many  way  elegance  and manners  well  speech    poetic  thought humour --how sad  my spelling  of  words i would use
  thespelling  has  fallen    beehind       and once i used ONLY FOUNTAIN PENS   !!!!!!!
----------
 SO BESSON AFFFECIANATAUTOS --TAKE HEART  !!!!!!!  and brave  the brass beaters -save  from recycling  the old thing  -relish in the tatters --AMERIKKKA  is going thru and will continue
  to follow   the grande empire -as the  power of the orient    yellow menace in  time  will perhaps overshadow  the  bird with  white head
 ---------
 i really  love  my BENTLEY --  but at least i can use  OLD BESSIE  !!!!!!!!