Intonation issue on 36H

[aboumaia]

...

[BGuttman]

The 36H seems to prefer the Conn 7C that it was shipped with. I suspect the shank is not a standard small shank. I had problems with every mouthpiece I tried with it other than that 7C (including a Bach 7C).


Doug Elliott offers a special shank for alto, but I've never tested it out. I play a Giardinelli 5M with an Elliott MT102 rim on it and just alter my positions.

[stewbones43]

Bruce is right about the Doug Elliott alto shank.
I use it on my 36H with an ST95 rim and a C up and the Alto S shank. No problems.
But I also have a Lindberg 15CL which I use when I have to switch between alto and tenor; then I use a Lindberg 5CL in my 88H. Still no intonation problems.

Cheers

Stewbones

[harrisonreed]

The way to fix the 36H for me was:

1. Tune Db to the bell. Your Eb in 1st will be quite a ways off the bumpers in the cork barrels.

2. For me, I decided that even pushed in all the way my Db was in front of the bell, so I cut down the tuning slide by 3/8". This brought the Db in line with the bell and lined the harmonic series up in every position better.

3. The DE XT A and B cups, with matching alto shanks (standard, not "S") are the right mouthpiece, if you do the things above. Some of the length that is chopped off in the bell (which really does improve the harmonics) is made up for in the slightly longer standard S shank.

This is a weird solution. The DE Alto S shanks were an instant improvement, but not as much as chopping the tuning slides. And it seems you can only do one, or the other. The DE mouthpieces overall are the biggest step you can take. Can't recommend them enough.

[Kdanielsen]

The CL15/13 both go in deeper than a normal small shank. I haven’t tried them on a conn, but Lindberg certainly has.

[Doug Elliott]

The 36H receiver is smaller than a normal tenor receiver. A regular small shank mouthpiece doesn't line up very well and causes problems like that.

[aboumaia]

...

[harrisonreed]

Thank you for all your answers. I will go for a DE mouthpiece, and hope this will fix my problem.
Your solution Harrison Reed is very interesting, I tried to push the tuning slide all the way in, but this was not enough to tune the Db to the bell, and I'm not adventurous enough to cut down my tuning slide...

I was wondering : how is it possible that the 36H has a smaller receiver than other alto trombones, while it is one the one with the largest bore (.491 on the upper tube), comparing with most of other altos (Yamaha, Shires, K&H, Bach, Courtois) ?

I asked the designer, Chuck Ward, this very question. He told me that originally the Bb attachment was much longer, per Christian Lindberg's request, but they decided to shorten it for production because Chuck knew too many people would complain it was impossible to tune it to Bb. For reference, this is similar to many bass trombonists complaining that their F attachment is too long to tune to F (they're wrong, it's actually their main tuning slide that is pulled too long, but we'll get to that).

When I pressed him about the leadpipe he said that it was correct and changing it would make the instrument not work. I'm still wondering about that one, but whatever. I'm sure that if I learned enough to design the 36H like Chuck, then I'd realize that he was right.

I asked Christian about the leadpipes he uses and his reply was something along the lines of "I have played the 88H for 40 years and the 36H for almost as long. Of course I tried leadpipes, but the standard ones are best"

Everything from here on is all conjecture, but these comments from the two guys who designed the thing lead me to believe that:

1 - similar to the problem brought up by bass trombonists (who tune their trombone flat and play short on the slide, and then complain that their trombone is too flat to tune their F attachment), the 36H was meant to be played with the tuning slide as short as possible and even had an extra long Bb attachment originally. It was meant to be played long on the slide in Eb, and short on the slide in Bb (which puts the positions for lip trills in Bb as close as possible to the normal positions in Eb). I believe based on photos that the 36H prototype was also shorter in the tuning slide, just like I cut mine to be, but I could be just be getting fooled by the longer Bb attachment.

2 - Lindberg doesn't mess with leadpipes, but he messed around a LOT with mouthpieces, starting with Larry Minnick. He had a 34H back in the day (might have been a Minnick), and was already using whatever leadpipe that horn had, with the smaller receiver. He already solved the leadpipe problem with a mouthpiece by the time the 36H came out. So they kept the wonky leadpipe and made sure the Conn 7C fit in it properly, like Lindberg's signature mouthpiece did.

[BGuttman]

Short bit of pedantry:

I got one of the first 36H's in 1990 at the New York Brass Conference for Scholarships. I bought the demo there. Lindberg couldn't have been playing the 36H for 40 years -- maybe 30. But there were other Conn altos before the 36H, although none had a Bb attachment.

[harrisonreed]

Short bit of pedantry:

I got one of the first 36H's in 1990 at the New York Brass Conference for Scholarships. I bought the demo there. Lindberg couldn't have been playing the 36H for 40 years -- maybe 30. But there were other Conn altos before the 36H, although none had a Bb attachment.

Yeah in the early 80s it was a Conn without an attachment, and then a Minnick conn with a Bb attachment.

[CalgaryTbone]

Not sure of the dates for the different Conns, but they made a 35H during the Elkhart years - no B flat attachment and with slide tuning. They didn't make an alto for a long time, and Lindberg got them to start making the 36H and 34H (no trigger version). I remember an interview w/Lindberg where he said that he wanted them to resurrect their old alto with improvements. The 35H was a wonderful horn with some tuning issues - the newer Conns are much more "user-friendly", although like this thread shows - mouthpiece choice (especially the fit into the receiver) makes a difference with those too. That old Conn was an inspiration for both of the new versions of the Conn and for the Shires (with slide tuning). Probably for some of the Minnick altos as well.

Jim Scott

[BGuttman]

Before the 35H there was a 16H alto.