TromboneChat

I’m not sure where to post this, so move it if you need to
Do any of you guys also have this lip problem? Normally, my lips are fine, but about once or twice every month, my lips feel dry and sticky and rubbery, which causes the response of my lips to feel terrible when playing and my pedal tones and notes above Bb4 become inaccessible. It’s super odd, I haven’t had a month where this hasn’t recurred.

Could this be an allergy or an infection? I use a silver plated mouthpiece that has no plating wear.

You need to consider everything that comes in contact - toothpaste, anything you put on your lips, food, etc. Is there any common event that happens a day or two before it happens each time?

I'm just saying it may be unrelated to playing, but of course it might be silver allergy. Unlikely though.

Pineapple has a similar effect on me, sometimes but not always.

Fried chicken !

I should add spices and salt to the possible culprits. And I now know of a similar case that seems to be sensitivity to vaseline. Not something you'd expect.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:48 pm You need to consider everything that comes in contact - toothpaste, anything you put on your lips, food, etc. Is there any common event that happens a day or two before it happens each time?

I'm just saying it may be unrelated to playing, but of course it might be silver allergy. Unlikely though.

Pineapple has a similar effect on me, sometimes but not always.

Hmmmm...I do remember that some of the times, I ate salmon and/or pita chips a couple days before. I'll try to not eat those foods. Thanks for your help!

Drink water

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:01 pm Drink water

ericcheng2005 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:50 pm Hmmmm...I do remember that some of the times, I ate salmon and/or pita chips a couple days before. I'll try to not eat those foods. Thanks for your help!

Just keep in mind that in proper scientific discovery, things need to be tested. So - the theory is that either salmon or something in pita chips caused the problem; thus, pick a day to eat one of those and not the other and see what happens.

Sometimes people develop food phobias by random association with some other cause.

Any one of us could be right about your lip issue, and maybe a combination of everything. But a life without salmon or pita chips is not a life worth living -- don't give up on those just yet.

It looks like, at least in the picture, dehydration, exasperated by too much playing trombone causing tiny tiny abrasions in the tissue, more dehydration, then your lips felt bad so you kept licking them, and then that made it a thousand times worse. It's happened to me loads of times. I thought I should stop eating spicy foods, since spicy food burnt the tiny abrasions and chappedness of my dehydrated lips. But they were all just symptoms of a far worse problem - dehydration.

I started drinking a massive glass of water in the morning, a Nalgene bottle throughout the day, and tons of green tea. I've been doing it for years. No more swollen, red, chapped lips. All of the spicy food, salmon, and pita chips. Life is good.

I've also found that Burt's Bees classic original lip balm (peppermint, in the yellow tube) is by far the best lip balm. I never leave home without a tube in my pocket.

I have a lot of allergies. Before testing was widely accepted by insurance, I had to work with my doctors by trial and error. First, they told me to drink lots of water - two gallons a day. Then I had to make a daily log of the weather (it affects pollen and mold levels), where I went, and what I ate and drank. I also noted the days I had problems and looked for commonalities. Even with modern tests doctors can’t find everything. They define some things as chemical sensitivities that can’t be treated except by avoidance.

I had a lip swelling problem earlier, and my doctor and I suspected the nickel in my tuba mouthpiece. I switched to a lexan rim as I already used on trombone. It seems to have worked.

You have work ahead of you, but it will be worth it.

Sometimes the lip skin accumulates. I can recall ties where I would abrade the skin with my teeth, leaving them very supple, but also at risk of drying out, so balm was needed immediately. However, the supple lips performed much better.

Thank you guys so much!

I drink a couple glasses of water in the morning and drink intermittently through the day. I should probably drink a bit when I’m practicing.

Most likely, Doug is taking you in the proper direction. Allergens and lip swelling go hand-in-hand and can really impact your playing. Unfortunately, allergens can end up being one of your favorite foods.

I must be very careful with vinegar and other acidic foods, especially when combined with salt. My lips swell up like crazy with certain vinegar-based salad dressings There have been a few times (before I figured out the problem) that I needed to call on a sub in the last minute due to extreme swelling....probably caused by acidic salad dressings. I have learned to adjust by diluting salad dressings with water. It has turned out to be a money saver as well. When I buy a bottle of Italian Salad Dressing, I dilute is so much I can usually get four or more bottles out of one!

My brother, a trumpet player, discovered many years ago that he would get swelling and blisters on his lips when he consumed dairy products. Now that he has cut dairy products from his diet, he has little or no problem with lip swelling.

I hope you can figure out the culprit!

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:22 pm Most likely, Doug is taking you in the proper direction. Allergens and lip swelling go hand-in-hand and can really impact your playing. Unfortunately, allergens can end up being one of your favorite foods.

I must be very careful with vinegar and other acidic foods, especially when combined with salt. My lips swell up like crazy with certain vinegar-based salad dressings There have been a few times (before I figured out the problem) that I needed to call on a sub in the last minute due to extreme swelling....probably caused by acidic salad dressings. I have learned to adjust by diluting salad dressings with water. It has turned out to be a money saver as well. When I buy a bottle of Italian Salad Dressing, I dilute is so much I can usually get four or more bottles out of one!

My brother, a trumpet player, discovered many years ago that he would get swelling and blisters on his lips when he consumed dairy products. Now that he has cut dairy products from his diet, he has little or no problem with lip swelling.

I hope you can figure out the culprit!

Thank you so much!

Your issue doesn’t sound exactly the same as mine, but I’ll throw this out there just in case: I have an allergy to the nickel/metal in most mouthpieces. It causes my lips to quickly become severely chapped. I’ve found that coating my mpcs with clear nail polish solves the problem.

If you think it might be a food-related thing, the best thing to do would be to keep a detailed food diary, rather than guessing randomly now. Log everything you eat, how much water you have each day, which spices/seasonings you use, if you have any alcohol, etc. Then, if/when it happens, look back over the day or two before and look for consistencies. Patterns are more likely to become clear that way.

Also, as others have said - drink plenty water, and use a good lip balm. I second Harrison in that Burt's Bees original is the finest out there.

MagnumH wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:58 am If you think it might be a food-related thing, the best thing to do would be to keep a detailed food diary, rather than guessing randomly now. Log everything you eat, how much water you have each day, which spices/seasonings you use, if you have any alcohol, etc. Then, if/when it happens, look back over the day or two before and look for consistencies. Patterns are more likely to become clear that way.

Also, as others have said - drink plenty water, and use a good lip balm. I second Harrison in that Burt's Bees original is the finest out there.

Thank you!

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:48 pm You need to consider everything that comes in contact - toothpaste, anything you put on your lips, food, etc. Is there any common event that happens a day or two before it happens each time?

I'm just saying it may be unrelated to playing, but of course it might be silver allergy. Unlikely though.

Pineapple has a similar effect on me, sometimes but not always.

Thank you so much guys, and especially Doug! I’m allergic to a chemical commonly found in toothpaste and cleaning products, it’s “sodium lauryl sulfate”

It's hard to avoid sodium lauryl sulfate, I think it's in every toothpaste, even Tom's.

This is an interesting read
https://www.tomsofmaine.com/our-promise ... yl-sulfate

You can probably just be careful how much and how long the contact is, and rinse thoroughly, and try coconut oil on your lips afterward.

I think I had a temporary sensitivity to it once but it went away when I switched toothpastes. It might actually be a different ingredient, or a particular combination of other ingredients.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:23 am It's hard to avoid sodium lauryl sulfate, I think it's in every toothpaste, even Tom's.

This is an interesting read
https://www.tomsofmaine.com/our-promise ... yl-sulfate

You can probably just be careful how much and how long the contact is, and rinse thoroughly, and try coconut oil on your lips afterward.

I think I had a temporary sensitivity to it once but it went away when I switched toothpastes. It might actually be a different ingredient, or a particular combination of other ingredients.

Yeah, I had to switch to sensodyne toothpaste. I’ll look at the site

Interesting, I didn't know Sensodyne was made without sodium lauryl sulfate.

From their website:
"Sensodyne Essential Care toothpastes (aside from Sensodyne Deep Clean) and Sensodyne True White toothpastes do not have SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate), an ingredient that makes toothpaste foamy when you brush, but can also irritate sensitive teeth and gums."

And lips.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:30 pm Interesting, I didn't know Sensodyne was made without sodium lauryl sulfate.

From their website:
"Sensodyne Essential Care toothpastes (aside from Sensodyne Deep Clean) and Sensodyne True White toothpastes do not have SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate), an ingredient that makes toothpaste foamy when you brush, but can also irritate sensitive teeth and gums."

And lips.

I've always wondered. If Sensodyne can numb parts of your teeth that are sensitive, does it do the same thing to your lips? that might not be a good thing.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:02 am I've always wondered. If Sensodyne can numb parts of your teeth that are sensitive, does it do the same thing to your lips? that might not be a good thing.

I haven’t noticed any numbing effects, but my playing is much better now.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:30 pm Interesting, I didn't know Sensodyne was made without sodium lauryl sulfate.

From their website:
"Sensodyne Essential Care toothpastes (aside from Sensodyne Deep Clean) and Sensodyne True White toothpastes do not have SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate), an ingredient that makes toothpaste foamy when you brush, but can also irritate sensitive teeth and gums."

And lips.

Thanks so much, Doug! I’ve just begun to have a secondary set of symptoms that I’ve never had before, where the 2 cm below and above my lips are red all the time, and they burn (it’s bearable) when I try to play. This is accompanied by cracks and “crevices” in my lips that cause an airy sound while playing. Should I go to the doctor? Thanks man, you’ve helped a lot

Wow. Sounds like what the docs call "contact dermatitis". It seems this is one of those names they pull out for something they really don't know how to fix but where time and the reassurance of authority helps.

Salves may help, but it sure seems more important to change the nature of the contact. Get out of the routine. So, if you have a plastic Kelly piece, try that. Or you can clean your piece really well and paint it. Nail polish may do it (choose a pretty color!). Paint strips off easily, so don't worry about that. It's not permanent.

It may be a few days off to let the skin calm down will help.

Could you send a really close up picture of the rim of your mouthpiece, and another showing the entrance to the throat? Don't clean them before you take the picture.

I used to have issues with my lips and thought I needed a gold plate mouthpiece, but it was because I did things like leave my mp out on a table rim side down, and didn't clean it enough.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:56 am Could you send a really close up picture of the rim of your mouthpiece, and another showing the entrance to the throat? Don't clean them before you take the picture.

I used to have issues with my lips and thought I needed a gold plate mouthpiece, but it was because I did things like leave my mp out on a table rim side down, and didn't clean it enough.

I completely clean the mouthpiece with a rinse, a small wipe of 70% alcohol, and a cleaning snake after every time I play, so it’s usually squeaky clean, but here’s the pic, thanks so much for your help!

If you put ANYTHING on your lips, including vaseline, stop. And anything that may spray or splash on your face.
I suggest trying a Lexan rim or whole mouthpiece for at least a week or two.
You need to totally eliminate all possible sources of allergy or sensitivity.
Silver allergy is likely but it could be anything.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:36 am If you put ANYTHING on your lips, including vaseline, stop. And anything that may spray or splash on your face.
I suggest trying a Lexan rim or whole mouthpiece for at least a week or two.
You need to totally eliminate all possible sources of allergy or sensitivity.
Silver allergy is likely but it could be anything.

Thanks! I’ll stop using chapstick for a bit, and I’ll log everything I eat.

I have basically not put anything on my lips for at least 30 years. Coconut oil if absolutely necessary.

ericcheng2005 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:43 am I completely clean the mouthpiece with a rinse, a small wipe of 70% alcohol, and a cleaning snake after every time I play

If the last thing you do is the alcohol wipe (which is unlikely to be necessary anyway - brush, soap and water should be just fine - but that's not the point here), depending on the form this takes the other chemical residues that get left behind could well be irritants.

Obviously you need to consider all the other allergy/senstivity issues mentioned above. Speaking from experience (v serious food allergies) you need to be utterly methodical to work out what's going on - cut out everything, introduce variables individually, and keep thorough notes. It's a huge PITA, but you'll get there.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:16 am

ericcheng2005 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:43 am I completely clean the mouthpiece with a rinse, a small wipe of 70% alcohol, and a cleaning snake after every time I play

If the last thing you do is the alcohol wipe (which is unlikely to be necessary anyway - brush, soap and water should be just fine - but that's not the point here), depending on the form this takes the other chemical residues that get left behind could well be irritants.

Obviously you need to consider all the other allergy/senstivity issues mentioned above. Speaking from experience (v serious food allergies) you need to be utterly methodical to work out what's going on - cut out everything, introduce variables individually, and keep thorough notes. It's a huge PITA, but you'll get there.

Thanks dude, I’ll try!

ericcheng2005 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:37 pm Should I go to the doctor?

It's clearly impinging on your quality of life and if you continue having these symptoms you should at least mention it to your doctor at your next visit. None of us here are qualified to offer you medical advice, I think.

Dave

Wilktone wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:30 am

ericcheng2005 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:37 pm Should I go to the doctor?

It's clearly impinging on your quality of life and if you continue having these symptoms you should at least mention it to your doctor at your next visit. None of us here are qualified to offer you medical advice, I think.

Dave

I will, thank you so much!

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:16 am

ericcheng2005 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:43 am I completely clean the mouthpiece with a rinse, a small wipe of 70% alcohol, and a cleaning snake after every time I play

If the last thing you do is the alcohol wipe (which is unlikely to be necessary anyway - brush, soap and water should be just fine - but that's not the point here), depending on the form this takes the other chemical residues that get left behind could well be irritants.

Obviously you need to consider all the other allergy/senstivity issues mentioned above. Speaking from experience (v serious food allergies) you need to be utterly methodical to work out what's going on - cut out everything, introduce variables individually, and keep thorough notes. It's a huge PITA, but you'll get there.

Just curious, in the end, what was your allergy? The only thing that works to reduce this swelling is Benadryl, which suggests that it must be allergy related. Taking 50 mg of Benadryl every day probably won’t be good for my long term health though

If this started recently it could be an allergy to certain fall pollens (goldenrod and ragweed are typical). If it is a pollen allergy it may go away after winter sets in. A little later for you than me.

Or you could be like my wife and be allergic to pumpkin spice (particularly nutmeg) which will last you until January or so when it finally gets retired for the season.

One big problem with Benadryl is it tends to make you sleepy. Minimize your driving if you are on Benadryl.

At this point, you need to be talking to your doctor.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:47 am If this started recently it could be an allergy to certain fall pollens (goldenrod and ragweed are typical). If it is a pollen allergy it may go away after winter sets in. A little later for you than me.

Or you could be like my wife and be allergic to pumpkin spice (particularly nutmeg) which will last you until January or so when it finally gets retired for the season.

One big problem with Benadryl is it tends to make you sleepy. Minimize your driving if you are on Benadryl.

Can you start driving at age 14 in the US these days?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:19 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:47 am If this started recently it could be an allergy to certain fall pollens (goldenrod and ragweed are typical). If it is a pollen allergy it may go away after winter sets in. A little later for you than me.

Or you could be like my wife and be allergic to pumpkin spice (particularly nutmeg) which will last you until January or so when it finally gets retired for the season.

One big problem with Benadryl is it tends to make you sleepy. Minimize your driving if you are on Benadryl.

Can you start driving at age 14 in the US these days?

In many states (especially in the South) you can get a learner's permit at 14.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:21 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:19 pm

Can you start driving at age 14 in the US these days?

In many states (especially in the South) you can get a learner's permit at 14.

Ohhhh mai gahhhhh!!