TromboneChat

I dont want to be rude, because its a good performance, but theres something off. Im thinking intonation, but i didnt think it could make something sound so wrong. The guy plays pretty well, but theres just something that makes me not want to listen to it. Again, i dont want to dog him, because he plays better than me, but something is just not right.

He's playing one of the Bach cello suites, which weren't originally written for trombone. What you have noticed is something that we should all consider when tackling music not written for trombone. He's got notes, but there is no music. Listen to a great performance by somebody like Pablo Casals or Yo Yo Ma and hear what it's supposed to sound like.

Almost every 2nd position I cared to listen to was quite low.

He's also playing pulled to E, which means he has to give up a lot of facility with the valve, putting more things out on the slide (and therefore suspect tuning wise).

Not much point in even getting to the musicality when the basics are detracting from it.

Mr. Yera plays in quite a different style than most USA players are used to. Even in his video of the Aschausky concerto his articulations are gentler. While not to my taste, he does this with professional consistency and conviction. You can hear a less extreme version of this on recording by Michel Becquet.

He DOES interpret the Bach. He does NOT follow "traditional" cello interpretations. Again, I do not agree with some of his musical choices, but those choices are definitely there and he does NOT just play a sequence of notes.

Not sure where the "pulled to E" comes in... when he plays he "E" pedals he is just below 2nd position. He definitely plays a lower position than his other 2nd position notes. My horns need E to be closer to 3rd position, but my horn is quite different from his.

It is human nature to think of "different" as being "off." Strictly different, "different" IS "off." But "different" is a neutral assessment. "Off" has negative connotations.

Learning to analyze differences from a neutral perspective is one of the best ways to grow our own abilities. Anchoring our own prejudices with terms like "off" is, on the other hand, best at causing us to miss opportunities.

I like that performance. He's plenty musical and "better than most" intonation wise. The time is elastic, and dynamics follow the phrases. Where he breaks the phrases is sometimes different from what I would do, but that's individual choice. He does have a bad case of bell finger, but a lot of good players have that bad habit.

Here's a performance I like better, judgmental types can maybe cover your ears. (Massimo laRosa)

I know there are hundreds of years of interpretation behind these performances, but the bottom line is these things are dances. The guy has crappy time and it hurts to listen to. Now, it may be that received interpretation has blessed bad time performance. If so, then that tells you something.

He has an excellent sound and control of the horn. His pitch is pretty good too minus what sounded like a couple of common mistakes.

The main thing that is throwing me off about this is the lack of continuity/coherence of his phrase structure, which includes his rubato. He is clearly trying to make shorter phrases sound intentional, and he's stretching the time to do so, but it sounds random and not coherent. This happens from the very first note. The rhythms within the beats feel random and don't give the listener a sense of pulse to catch onto - very important because this is dance music. This movement and others like it in particular are REALLY difficult to do this well.

I love practicing this music and have played this and many of the other Bach suites many times, it is excellent music to study. However, I will almost never perform them unless I'm 100% sure that I can have a really convincing interpretation, and that's why I've only performed the 'easier' ones live.

I think it's totally appropriate to be critical of any performance, even if it's professional, if your intention is to learn. I know too many people that like to find recordings with mistakes in them to boost their egos, and that's where the problem is.

boneagain wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:33 am

Not sure where the "pulled to E" comes in... when he plays he "E" pedals he is just below 2nd position. He definitely plays a lower position than his other 2nd position notes. My horns need E to be closer to 3rd position, but my horn is quite different from his.
.

You're right... He's got some interesting position choices that made me think otherwise. Oh well, no excuse for the intonation then.

baileyman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:55 am I know there are hundreds of years of interpretation behind these performances, but the bottom line is these things are dances.

I'm pretty sick of hearing this. It may be true that these are dance forms, but this argument is mostly used to justify metronomic and unmusical renderings of these pieces.

Additionally, while the majority of the pieces in each suite are dance forms, the preludes are not.

I only got in about 40 seconds, but...

I think his legato is too connected.
Legato... too connected? How can what is supposed to be connected be too connected?

Because he's trying to play music not written for a trombone on a trombone.

Too much of it is bordering on or actually becoming mere glissandos from one pitch to another like this stuff. It sounds like a wobble, not an alternation between two pitches...

Even the slurs that can take advantage of idiomatic trombone positioning sound sloppy.

Yes, it's a trombone but if any other instrument were sliding into pitches like that they'd lose their artistic license.

... or he could just play the whole piece rhythmically while circular breathing.

paulyg wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:45 pm

baileyman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:55 am I know there are hundreds of years of interpretation behind these performances, but the bottom line is these things are dances.

I'm pretty sick of hearing this. It may be true that these are dance forms, but this argument is mostly used to justify metronomic and unmusical renderings of these pieces.

Additionally, while the majority of the pieces in each suite are dance forms, the preludes are not.

I'm pretty sick of hearing 'being musical' and 'rubato/cadenza' to justify poor time. I think that is more common than the former.

I'm not saying you can't take liberties but they have to make sense to the listener. I'm not necessarily saying he has poor time, because he doesn't.

Does anybody actually dance to this music any more? I'm not aware that they do, but I'm not very knowledgeable about dancing.

I think this recording of Charlie Vernon playing the Sarabande from Bach Cello Suite #1 is absolutely beautiful. He takes significant liberties with tempo.

Even Yo-Yo Ma takes liberties with tempo in his recordings of the Bach Cello Suites. It seems very natural and musical to me.

I've been practicing a few parts from the suites over the past few months. At my proficiency level (low) I have to vary the tempo and insert rests for breath in order to get through them. I don't play at a level where I'd expect anyone else to enjoy listening to me play them, but I get a lot of satisfaction from playing them.

Brad

Bravo Charlie Vernon !

While we're listening to fine trombonists, how about Ralph Sauer's version of the first Bach Cello suite:

Is that slide vibrato (on the Vernon)???

All the trombonists above do a fine job. The are some intonation problems but I can live with that. There are some phrasings that I would not like, but that is choice you make. Good jobs, Ralph Sauer is a favorit since he got most of it "right". Charles Vernon made it sing, some intonation issues but that is ok for me.

That said, I heard many trombonists doing a good job of it. But.....

no one trombonist could make this music live like this, it does not come well on trombone.

You have to adjust the music to the horn and that is not easy.

To be honest, I struggled with it as a young boy, I hade many students who struggled with it, I listened to other trombonists struggle with it on concerts. It does not fit the horn.

It does fit the cello.

That Prelude is difficult. What is wrong with this? I think it is not very nice to criticize hard because he has not asked for it, but of course as other has mentioned even he who is a good player can not compete with a Cello player to make music out of this.

We can just discuss the interpretation, because the approach to this piece can be done differently, in so many ways. There are several things that do work and several that do not work.

1. I think it should be done with less of the rubato. I think they are there because he needs air. The trombone needs air something a cello does not need. The solution must be to make the breathing a part of the piece and not something we can refer to as "must be there because of need". This is of course more easy said than done.
2. I find most of the legatoplaying very nice and I can be envious how tight he can play, but here and there it becomes a smear. I think at those places my listening gets confused. It is very important to get the intonation "dead on" perfect especially as the reverb reveals if intonation is not perfect on all those broken chords.

The whole performance/interpretation becomes a little blurry because of what I listed above. In whole he is a good player with a good sound and he does very well on this very hard piece

/Tom

I should not say much because I cant play it. I admire all trombone players that can play the hole suite at once. What is wrong? He is obvious playing the wrong instrument and should immediately switch to a Conn!

I like the Ralph Sauer version, (he played a conn of course) And i like Charles Vernon sarabande because he makes good music where I can sit down and feel relaxed from first note. Just enjoy his musicality. Even though he breath often but its all calm and musical.

I played the prelude once long time ago and it would have been ok if it was a comedy show. It was not and the high "g" in the last 4-5 bars still gives me a nightmare. I like the prelude in second suite better.

Anyway, its fun to play.

Leif

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:50 pm Bravo Charlie Vernon !

While we're listening to fine trombonists, how about Ralph Sauer's version of the first Bach Cello suite:

Dont forget about James Markey

imsevimse wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:16 am That Prelude is difficult. What is wrong with this? I think it is not very nice to criticize hard because he has not asked for it,

He's posted this on YouTube, the world's most heavily trafficked video site with comments enabled.

He's going to get comments. We're not breaking any rule of propriety by talking about this thing or what's wrong with it.

He's not going to lose any gigs because of anything that gets said here on the Trombone forum.

I challenge the peanut gallery to post their own version lol

I agree that the suitess do not lay well, at least on tenor.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:19 pm

imsevimse wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:16 am That Prelude is difficult. What is wrong with this? I think it is not very nice to criticize hard because he has not asked for it,

He's posted this on YouTube, the world's most heavily trafficked video site with comments enabled.

He's going to get comments. We're not breaking any rule of propriety by talking about this thing or what's wrong with it.

He's not going to lose any gigs because of anything that gets said here on the Trombone forum.

To add on to that, he has 5 ads enabled in the video.

Forgive me because I am rather dinosaurean. What is the significance of the ads? Does he get money if they play? Or just YouTube?

Also, if you allow the ads, can you specify where in the program material they play or is it just "every n seconds"?

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:54 pm Forgive me because I am rather dinosaurean. What is the significance of the ads? Does he get money if they play? Or just YouTube?

Also, if you allow the ads, can you specify where in the program material they play or is it just "every n seconds"?

It means he probably has the video monetized, so he'll make money from Youtube.

It's as good as a "paid performance" as we're going to get as free listeners, and IMO opens it to critique.

What's "wrong" with the original video in question is HORRIBLE slide-tongue synchronization. Not even close. No, it's not "too legato," it's just bad legato.
I will go so far as to say Charlie Vernon is one of the only players I've ever heard whose synchronization is as perfect as it can be. His legato is absolutely beautiful, and that's why.
Trombone players, even some with major symphony gigs, get away with BS that would be completely unacceptable on any other instrument.

Fascinating to dive a bit into these recordings. I found myself liking the Vernon and Markey by far the best while some of the others didn’t draw me in enough to keep listening all the way through. The Markey is one I would most likely put on solely as music for non-trombonists. Then I realized that it was a little unfair because they were playing Sarabandes. So I went back and listened to Sauer’s Sarabande and can see how the prelude is just so difficult. Obviously he plays it like the trombone virtuoso he is but it doesn’t move me as a listener beyond being a trombonist. His Sarabande is lovely. When I listen to the original recording’s Sarabande it is more enjoyable musically than the Prelude but I think the slower movements let me hear the issues Doug brought up more clearly. Finally, The Mischa Maisky cello recording reminds me why I own multiple recordings of cellists playing the Suites. So gorgeous.

Here’s another interesting performance. Fabrice Millischer performing the first prelude on both cello and trombone.
It is truly fascinating because while he may have different (but very high) skill levels on the two instruments, obviously he has the same knowledge and thoughts about interpretation.

oh yeah, let's all dunk on the guy that recorded a full Bach cello suite with repeats for all of us to watch and enjoy.

JakeRoberts69 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:23 pm oh yeah, let's all dunk on the guy that recorded a full Bach cello suite with repeats for all of us to watch and enjoy.

Elijah just felt a little uneasy about the interpretation of the guy in the original post. He admitted the guy played better than he (and better than many of us). The number of awful solo works on YouTube is pretty large. Every kid with an instrument and a smart phone can post something up there. Most don't get any comments (and deservedly so).

JakeRoberts69 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:23 pm oh yeah, let's all dunk on the guy that recorded a full Bach cello suite with repeats for all of us to watch and enjoy.

I'm not buying this argument. He put it up for public viewing, and therefore is open to criticism as well.

I hope I didn’t come off as dunking on any of them. All of them are significantly/insanely better than I am. If I posted a recording of the Suites, YouTube would probably take it down under some obscenity clause or a horde of cellists would appear outside my home with torches. But if we can’t discuss the details and pros and cons of these recordings then we can’t learn as much from them.

BTW adding ads means you are hoping to make money. I think you need to get a certain number or rate of views before YouTube actually pays you. So some videos with ads only make money for YouTube. Changes in that algorithm have created great debate among people who try to make money off of YouTube. Maybe this discussion is helping him a bit.

Or the ads give money to Sony, owing to yet another phony copyright claim on Bach just because they released a CD or two with Bach on it...

Not saying that's what happened there, but yeah. That also does happen

andym wrote: ↑Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:37 pm Here’s another interesting performance. Fabrice Millischer performing the first prelude on both cello and trombone.
It is truly fascinating because while he may have different (but very high) skill levels on the two instruments, obviously he has the same knowledge and thoughts about interpretation.

Wow Thanks for this. This is actually very good playing musically on both instruments. What a musician to be equally great on both instruments. I had never heard of him I know there are myriads of players who are so great and still unknown. This was a real inspiration.

/Tom

Same original guy:



playing a piece that absolutely must be spot on time. I report, you decide.

Incidentally, he appears to be somewhat the internet expert, judging from his videos, including breathing and embouchure explanations. But I am language limited.

Getting off topic but Fabrice Millischer has a good website with bio. He went to conservatory undecided between trombone and cello and studied both. Thinking of how many times we are told to play like a cellist, it must help to really know what that means.

He now is truly a trombonist with a number of awards and teaching positions. I started listening to his albums last night and am enjoying his lovely playing.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:13 am Same original guy:



playing a piece that absolutely must be spot on time. I report, you decide.

I'm not qualified to criticize, but Señor Yera has great facility, and is playing an apparently beautiful Stomvi trombone. If i could play as well, I'd be over the moon.

andym wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:44 am Getting off topic but Fabrice Millischer has a good website with bio.

Some years back he did a lecture and demonstration of diminutions at ATW.

Well, he called them that, we would call them ornaments. He played them incredibly cleanly on trombone, as if the instrument had no technical limitations.

His lecture was intended to be in French, and they hired an interpreter. But about five minutes in she apologized and gave up. She said she spoke French but this was so highly technical she couldn't put it in English. Fabrice switched to German and some audience members attempted translation.

Millischer's video is, to me, a pretty clear demonstration of why we probably shouldn't be performing those on trombone (playing them for fun and/or for challenge or training is absolutely fine). He's a world-class trombone player, and a relatively average cellist (i.e. good but there are probably thousands who are at least as good). Yet despite his cello playing in that video being kind of flat and generic, those cello segments still sounds several orders of magnitude better than the segments played on trombone. One sounds idiomatic, and the other anything but idiomatic.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:59 pm Millischer's video is, to me, a pretty clear demonstration of why we probably shouldn't be performing those on trombone (playing them for fun and/or for challenge or training is absolutely fine). He's a world-class trombone player, and a relatively average cellist (i.e. good but there are probably thousands who are at least as good). Yet despite his cello playing in that video being kind of flat and generic, those cello segments still sounds several orders of magnitude better than the segments played on trombone. One sounds idiomatic, and the other anything but idiomatic.

Also the fact that this thread is trying to compare heavily edited videos such as this one, with complete and unedited videos like the OP. It's apples and oranges. Millischer's video has a cut every few bars.

FWIW, I enjoyed Millischer's interpretation, editing or no. The OP video sounds like he's not in tune with himself. But I can't play any of these pieces so they are both far better than I am.

A world-class trombone player...
I don't know his reputation but I don't hear that.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:35 pm A world-class trombone player...
I don't know his reputation but I don't hear that.

My point exactly.

Years ago I bought this CD. I think I listened to it once and couldn't get past what sounded sloppy but I suppose could be just a different articulation style. I'm listening to it again, and there seem to be a of too-whah attacks. Maybe that's intentional.

Maximilien, I have come to see your point. I used to resist the idea that we should practice the Suites but not perform them. Now, I think maybe they are best left to challenge ourselves to learn and I think some public videos help us do that by hearing some great players approach them. Or at least we should carefully pick the movements.

While I enjoy Millischer's video of the prelude some of that is the fascination with the comparison between the instruments. I am far more moved by his Peregrinations CD of trombone and sackbut pieces. If you want to listen it is on Apple Music and maybe other streaming services. I am amazed by la Rosa's facility when he plays the Prelude. But it doesn't do enough for me musically to play it for a non-trombonist. Then I listen to his video of Pryor's "Blue Bells of Scotland" and that facility is used in a way that impresses me musically and that I feel anyone should enjoy.

Having had the audacity to comment, I promise to pull out the Suites and humble myself. I also promise to do that in private and not force any of you to listen.

In light of the ongoing discussion on performing Cello Suites on trombone, I was amused to see in Gwyn Seymour's arrangement for 2 cellos and cello ensemble of Henry Wood's Fantasia on British Sea Songs (available on IMSLP) an instruction to play the cello "like a trombone"!

And earlier they are told to play like a euphonium (albeit not in so many words). I hope they make those appropriately distinct.

Just looking through old threads...

It's "wrong" because his intonation, particularly in positions 4-6, is bad, and the reverberant room is extra unforgiving for bad intonation. If he played in a dry room, it might hide some of the intonation issues... but they'd still be there. Like Doug said, it's probably bad tongue/slide coordination.

The main thing I wanted to comment on is this idea that we can't criticize people who are "better" than us... "I dont want to dog him, because he plays better than me".

You don't have to be able to play good to critique bad.

And if you can't critique bad, you'll never get good, 'cause you won't notice how bad you are...

...and you'll post videos on Youtube with poor intonation, thinking they're good.

I'm reminded of a bad music joke:

What do you do with a drummer who can't keep the beat? Take away one stick and make him a conductor. Still can't keep a beat? Take away the other stick and make him a music critic.

Critics are not necessarily better at what they criticize than the practitioners. They have to be able to recognize good and bad aspects of what they are critiquing. A mean critic concentrates on the bad. A good critic identifies the good as well as the bad.

Commenting on YouTube videos that are doing things that either you don't like or are flat wrong is part of the game.

Making music with the notes (required breaths not withstanding) without undermining the architecture of the overall piece, by superimposing unmusical affectation on each phrase to explain the breaths (which is why the performances fall apart) is the only way to approach these pieces.

Trying to set up each coming breath with its own herald of rubato adds musical insult to musical injury (which is subtractive) such that our ears will not easily endure it. Which is why most people lose patience with listening to an entire performance of even a single movement of these pieces by a 'typically' talented trombonist.

I had been working to realize a new performance paradigm that 'aimed' at an un-trombonistic (except for tone) state of play when I was struck by dystonia. So I will not be the one to prove its future. However, listen to how quickly music passes and can be listened to in 'complete' performance despite being tried and challenged by the need of air.