TromboneChat

So lately i’ve been practicing bass trombone a lot more than euphonium but euphonium is my primary instrument. I’ve been having a lot of endurance issues with my audition etudes on euphonium. I can play for about 30 minutes and then i need like a 15 minute break. If i play the same etudes on bass trombone as written then i don’t have this problem. My mouthpiece for euph is a wick 4abl and for bass trombone it’s a shires 1 1/4md. I plan on getting a lesson with doug elliot when i have the funds but for the meantime hopefully someone here can help me.

The conventional wisdom is that WIDER rims improve endurance. One other problem may be the bite (shape of the inner rim) of the Wick -- it's a bit sharper than the Shires.

Have you tried using the Shires mouthpiece on your Euph? I've had great results on my Euph with a Warburton 3B (about 1 1/4 size).

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:25 pm The conventional wisdom is that WIDER rims improve endurance.

I do not agree. What does "conventional wisdom" mean in this context and what size are we talking about as large? I know some get advice to play wider rims because their face needs a wider rim. Maybe that is right. I can not tell, but most lead players I know do not play mouthpieces with large rims, not big band players, and it has a lot to do with endurance , and it takes endurance to be able to play that lead part as easy as possible with the right character. The ones I know play mouthpieces the size of a Bach 11C or a 6 1/2 AL not wider than this.

I know from this forum some do not like small rims but again a lot of big band players that I meet do. I do not think "conventional wisdom" is we all would get better endurance with wider rims. I think the rim s something we need to experiment with. Some might need a wider rim and some might need a not so wide rim. I agree with good technique we could play as high on a larger rim, but the point to play the smaller rim for me is really endurance and ro make it easier to playe with the right character. It would be much more hard and exhausting to do the same on a larger rim for me, not impossible but harder and more exhausting which would lead to less endurance.

I know by experience my endurance is much better on an 11C compared to an 6 1/2 AL or a Hammond 12M (Bach 5-ish) on the first part. If I play lead in a big band I absolutely choose the smaller size because I know I will last the 4-5 hour gig. I could do it on a 6 1/2 AL too. I have done it on a 6 1/2 AL but to get that punch on the lead part it takes a lot more work. I know I could do the gig on a 5-ish mouthpiece too but then it would be very exhausting.

/Tom

Another thing to add, i use a 10cs on small tenor and i don’t think there’s an issue there. But then again, i’m never play small tenor for more than an hour or two. Even then it’s in class and i’m not playing the entire.

What does your current euph or trombone teacher say/suggest?

Euph you say is your primary instrument, so have you been putting in the hours you need to on the euph to keep improving on it?

A lesson with Doug will help you establish the optimum rim size for your chops, but you are a young player who seems to be playing/doing a myriad of things, has the wick always been your euph piece? Is this problem a recent one? If yes to both of those then I refer you to my first point

Let's not conflate a few things-

cup diameter with rim width

cup diameter with cup depth

Tom, you're trying to compare pieces with smaller cup diameters AND smaller depths to other pieces. In order to compare, you have to control for cup depth (IE Doug Elliot pieces). Of course you'll have better endurance on a shallower piece with a smaller throat playing lead. But what about one with the same cup and a 6.5 rim? That's the whole reason systems like Doug's (and others) exist.

And for those of us that need a larger cup diameter (I usually refer to this as rim size, anyway), it absolutely makes a huge difference.

I have a DE piece for my 3B that is similar to my previous 6.5AL in most ways, but has a 4 size rim. Guess what? I can play higher, lower, and longer on it than the 6.5.

Not an expert on the situation, but is it possible that you’re unintentionally overblowing in the euphonium first whatever reason?

I’ve pretty much been playing in a variation of a 7C and recently switched to a 6 3/4 size (2 years ago) for 15 years.

The only time I get tired is when I over blow. For me, smaller mouthpieces allow you to over blow more before fatigue is a factor.

"Conventional wisdom" and the points made so far are correct for some people some of the time. But embouchure function is very different for different people and conventional wisdom is often exactly backwards.

My take:

It makes little sense to try to get this information from hundreds of folks on TromboneChat who have never seen or heard you play. You are young and scattered all over the place, trying to play and repair/restore a wide variety of instruments that almost none of us (except perhaps "Finetales") could keep up with.

What I believe you need is a qualified euphonium / trombone teacher (probably not your high school band director) who can have you play for him/her in person and give you guidance. The teacher you really want may be different for each instrument. In any case, listen to and diligently follow the guidance for an extended time period on just one of your many instruments. I'm willing to speculate that you'll improve dramatically.

Tom, I'm not talking about the diameter of the cup. I'm talking about the width of the rim. Larger cups do tend to make endurance go down; at least until you get used to them. What I was talking about is something like the difference between a Bach 12E and a Bach 12EW.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:26 pm Tom, I'm not talking about the diameter of the cup. I'm talking about the width of the rim. Larger cups do tend to make endurance go down; at least until you get used to them. What I was talking about is something like the difference between a Bach 12E and a Bach 12EW.

And I'd have to say that's not really a given, either.

My two cents: my range significantly increased when I switched to the Alessi 1C, which is considered to be a rather wide cup and wide rim width for tenor, but my overall endurance went down a bit. My range stayed at the same increased level when I tried a mouthpiece with the same cup diameter as the Alessi, but a thinner and more rounded rim contour and shallower cup. However my endurance issues went away entirely. It could work for you, but probably a lesson with Doug Elliott would get you there with a mouthpiece that is a 90-95% solution to any setting you need to play in, and a rim that is a 100% solution for every playing setting.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:26 pm Tom, I'm not talking about the diameter of the cup. I'm talking about the width of the rim. Larger cups do tend to make endurance go down; at least until you get used to them. What I was talking about is something like the difference between a Bach 12E and a Bach 12EW.

Sorry I misunderstood the post, Bruce. The width of the rim is a different thing, and so is the edge. For me flexibility and attacks are better on a thinner rim with more edge. I have not much experience with thicker rims, I usually do not like them but it might be better for endurance. I understand the point now. Sorry.

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:15 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:26 pm Tom, I'm not talking about the diameter of the cup. I'm talking about the width of the rim. Larger cups do tend to make endurance go down; at least until you get used to them. What I was talking about is something like the difference between a Bach 12E and a Bach 12EW.

Sorry I misunderstood the post, Bruce. The width of the rim is a different thing, and so is the edge. For me flexibility and attacks are better on a thinner rim with more edge. I have not much experience with thicker rims, I usually do not like them but it might be better for endurance. I understand the point now. Sorry.

/Tom

It's funny because wider rim contours have the opposite effect on me. Less endurance

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:16 pm

imsevimse wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:15 pm

Sorry I misunderstood the post, Bruce. The width of the rim is a different thing, and so is the edge. For me flexibility and attacks are better on a thinner rim with more edge. I have not much experience with thicker rims, I usually do not like them but it might be better for endurance. I understand the point now. Sorry.

/Tom

It's funny because wider rim contours have the opposite effect on me. Less endurance

That's why it's called "conventional wisdom". No guarantees it will work for you in particular.

I played a very wide rim mouthpiece and didn't like it because it affected flexibility and tonal accuracy.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:16 pm It's funny because wider rim contours have the opposite effect on me. Less endurance

I have to little experience if wider rims.

I always put them aside for other reasons than endurance, but I think there could be some logic to it if you are used to use more pressure to play high, and many do that.

I personally do not believe in "no pressure", but I do believe pressure should be as low as possible. I do know I have to use more pressure in the extreme high register.

Although I have never choose such wide rim I do think the pressure whould spread over a larger area and therefore it is logic it could help endurance, but again it is nothing I have experienced with, because I reject those rims for other reasons. I have not learned to play them.

/Tom

The wide vs narrow rim (shape) issue is really about the combination of mouthpiece placement and face & teeth structure. Mostly where your nose is, relative to your top lip - how tall or short your top lip is. For a lot of players, a wide rim anchors onto the structure at the bottom of the nose, and that is what becomes limiting on range and endurance. The same thing can happen at the chin for low placement players.

Look at pictures of Arnold Jacobs - very tall top lip, perfect space for a tuba mouthpiece, and extra room too. That kind of face, combined with a wide jaw structure, can accommodate a large and wide rim easily. Most players don't have that.

I can only talk about my experience. I bought a large bore horn, a Bach 6-1/2 AL and a Schilke 50. These MP's are supposed to be the same rim size. Numerous other specs are different. When playing, the Bach played nicely but the Schilke absolutely wore me out after about 10 min. The only difference I could feel was that the rim on the Schilke was flatter. That is something that probably will not show up on a MP comparison chart.
The point is that there could be many reasons your endurance is less. Only one of these is rim size.
I suggest the lesson with Doug as you mentioned. This should get you focused in the right direction in many ways.

I think the thick rims lock your muscles into place. This is great for when you have good slide technique that gives you good intonation just from where you put the slide (as opposed to lipping notes into pitch), and especially great for when you don't want to have any vibrato creeping into your excerpt or whatever you need to play. But for me, it tires me out. Too much metal on my face and not enough flexibility.

for some people, larger rims help endurance. for some, they don't. either way, 30 minutes straight on euhponium will tire almost anyone, and if your audition etudes take longer than 30 minutes to perform something is wrong. keep working bit by bit, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

also, a bunch of people have picked out the focus and instrument issue. i would recommend picking one of each instrument that you own, taking a few hours a day off of posting and trading horns or whatever, and all other ancillary stuff, and think about your long term developement as a musician and person. don't burn out too soon, there's time to "get good."

Practising 30 minutes on euph and take a 15 minutes break is pretty normal. I fact I do recomend that. Practising a lot on the bass if you are not used to idid CAN give you endurance problem on the smaller mpc. We are not talking about range are we? When you get used to the bass more your proble might get smaller. I did have problems similar to yours many years. It is better now that I am older and wiser. Start the day with the euph, For now only practise a half hour on the bass for the day. Go for the euph for 30 minutes take a break. What do mean larger rim? As you see above, people miss uderstand. Thicker rim or larger size? It is very common that the range gets bigger on a bigger size, but the enurance is another issue. In most cases: larger rims do not help endurance, but sometims it does.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:24 pm I think the thick rims lock your muscles into place. ... it tires me out. Too much metal on my face and not enough flexibility.

I find that at some higher pitch the chops are trying to bunch in and curl. On a freebuzz this happens seamlessly. But with a piece, the friction of the rim on the skin resists chop movement. Adding pressure makes movement impossible and fatigues very quickly. Pulling off a bit like Rene Lamert when the friction shows up can allow the movement to happen. I'm not sure of the effect on endurance for a gig (what's a gig?), but the notes certainly get easier.

It seems like it may be a good idea then to take this chop position for the higher notes and work on connecting it down so that when going up the movement is already incorporated into the lower note set, perhaps avoiding the unwinnable struggle against the rim of the piece.

Or just use a narrow rim profile

Elow wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:05 pm I’ve been having a lot of endurance issues with my audition etudes on euphonium. I can play for about 30 minutes and then i need like a 15 minute break. If i play the same etudes on bass trombone as written then i don’t have this problem.

With trombone you're holding the instrument up to your lips with your left hand. On euphonium the instrument (usually) is resting on your lap or a support of some sort. With trombone the small adjustments that you need to make while playing are comparatively easy to make. On euphonium there's a tendency for your horn angle and position of the mouthpiece on the lips to be locked into place.

It's possible that the way you're holding these different instruments up to your lips and the mechanics of how you're playing them are contributing to this difference more than the different rim sizes. Without watching you play, all anyone here is doing is guessing.

When you can, grab a lesson with someone who can watch you closely.

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:50 pm for some people, larger rims help endurance. for some, they don't. either way, 30 minutes straight on euhponium will tire almost anyone who is not primarily a euphoniumist.

FTFY.