TromboneChat

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:54 pm**

I’m planning on getting rid of my 42s in place of something with a thayer. I played an 8H as my first large tenor and i really liked it. I’m pretty sure it had some crazy mods like shires leadpipes and a cut bell. It was my teachers horn that i played that convinced me to upgrade from my 354. Anyways, i’m thinking about getting an elkhart 8H and putting some type of valve on it. I like thayers, but the ones on my bass require so much maintenance that i would consider something that plays similarly. I haven’t seen many other conns with thayers so i’m assuming there’s something that doesn’t work about them on conns so i’m seeing what that is before i do stuff.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:00 pm**

You'll have no room for your face if you add a thayer so modifications will be neccessary.

Go with an Olsen valve. They're cheaper, play well, less maintenance and it'll mount easier. And if you're modifying an 8H go with edged bracing and don't move the bell flange so you can keep the bell nice. I know from experience.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:09 pm**

I have seen a Olsen rotary valve conversion and it likely would work out great. Plus like Thrawn22 said the cost is less. I think someone is selling a valve set right now, but you might have to change out some parts as it was set up for another make of trombone I think. Still might be more ideal that starting from scratch.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:22 pm**

Elow, in case you are looking for one, I'm selling an Edwards Axial-Flow valve section. This one has Bach hardware installed (handslide and tuning slide receivers), but is easily replaceable with Conn parts. PM me if you're interested.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:44 pm**

I highly reccomend to keep a Conn 88h, especially a Elkhart, stock. There's a reason why the Elkhart 88h's you come across are stock instruments asides from sometimes having the leadpipe pulled.

It's not that the 88h takes poorly to mods but more so that the original design worked so great modding an Elkhart 88h changes the horn completely. Bach 42's on the other hand take much more kindly to valve mods without losing their character.

If you buy an Elkhart 88h try it and keep it stock. If you don't dig it and want the open valve with a Conn style bell just buy a Shires or Rath and call it a day. Don't risk hacking up a good 88h.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:45 pm**

Since no one said it, the reason you don't want a Thayer on an 8H is just because the slide isn't wide enough. With a new crook it's fine.

That said, I'd just get a nice rotor installed.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:17 pm**

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:44 pm I highly recommend ... a Conn 88H, especially an Elkhart stock. There's a reason why the Elkhart 88H's you come across are stock instruments (aside from sometimes having the leadpipe pulled).

If you buy an Elkhart 88H, try it and keep it stock. If you don't dig it and want an open valve with a Conn style bell just buy a Shires or Rath {or a Conn 88HCL} and call it a day.

Don't risk hacking up a good 88h.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:52 am**

The few Conn tenors with aftermarket valves I've tried all left me disappointed. None of them sounded or played better than a typical 88H with rotor. The best one is an Elkhart with a Hagmann (which is a valve I usually love), but with a closed (double O, Yamaha style) wrap. Was still pretty much on par with a stock 88H. The CL I tried was a really good horn, but again I didn't feel it was really inherently better than a normal 88. Basically to me it never felt the open valves moved the horn in the right direction for it to be an improvement.

Whereas with Bachs, most 42s with Hagmann or Thayer I've tried were significantly better than most stock 42s. Same with Bach-style Courtois, so I'm thinking there's something about that design that just really likes those valves.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:29 am**

Why a Thayer? The 88H is readily available. Getting an Elkhart is cute, but your mouthpiece won't even work in one unless you replace the leadpipe like your teacher did. Getting an Elkhart 8H, putting a thayer on it, having to replace the slide or slide crook, having to replace the leadpipe.... It won't be the horn you were after.

The Thayer improves Bach 42s and belongs on the Toby Oft trombone.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:59 am**

The whole reason we went nuts for alternative valves was the Bach 42B, which had a rather lousy rotor that created a lot of resistance. The other brands (Conn, King, Holton, Olds, etc.) had much more open valves and never really needed their valves improved. Now everybody thinks that you have to have a Hagmann or Axial (Thayer) when this is really not the case.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:50 pm**

Has anyone done a comprehensive scientific study of the changes in resistance between all of the readily valves types and makers?

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:09 pm**

MTbassbone wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:50 pm Has anyone done a comprehensive scientific study of the changes in resistance between all of the readily valves types and makers?

No, because it's not feasible. The perceived "resistance" we feel probably has little to do with how well they flow air. Trombone is a subjective science for the most part, not an objective one.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:18 pm**

You can still do a study based on the consistency of resistance for each valve type. To what end is another matter entirely.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:32 pm**

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:29 am The Thayer improves Bach 42s and belongs on the Toby Oft trombone.

That Toby Oft horn is something special! Just the right mix of Edwards and Conn to make something really amazing.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:34 pm**

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:18 pm You can still do a study based on the consistency of resistance for each valve type. To what end is another matter entirely.

What kind of resistance? Air? Water?

I think it's silly to try and break it down that way.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:35 pm**

Maybe measure any changes or disruptions of flow or something. Bob could be right though. It was just my first thought when read some of the comments.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:39 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:34 pm
Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:18 pm You can still do a study based on the consistency of resistance for each valve type. To what end is another matter entirely.
What kind of resistance? Air? Water?

I think it's silly to try and break it down that way.

Some people are trombone nerds in different ways and think about things according to their strengths. Some people buy cars off the specs, word of another, or fancy new gizmo rather than the test drive.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:28 pm**

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:39 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:34 pm

What kind of resistance? Air? Water?

I think it's silly to try and break it down that way.
Some people are trombone nerds in different ways and think about things according to their strengths. Some people buy cars off the specs, word of another, or fancy new gizmo rather than the test drive.

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:09 am**

I actually own an elkhart 8H that was made convertible and had a Thayer section built for it by Terry Pierce in NYC a few decades ago.

If you have a larger face, like I do, you may have some trouble with the clearance. Moving the slide further right and having a trombone grip or bullet brace attached will help with this. Otherwise a wider slide modification must be made.

That being said, the horn plays incredibly. The valve I have is an original OE Thayer and the tubing and outside valve is silver plated. The Elkhart conn sound with the open blow of the Thayer is magic when recording low parts, I often use it as my “bass trombone” for producers who don’t know what they look like.

I have considered selling it and have offered it up for sale, since I am fine with a .525/F. But it’s hard for me to imagine finding a better playing large bore, for my tastes.

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:54 am**

I had Mick Rath install a Hagmann valve on my Elkhart 88H about 7-8 years ago, The outcome is extraordinary, I can send you pics if you like.

Why did I go for the Hagmann? I wanted the most open valve while staying as close as possible to the "Elkhartness" (Is that a thing?) The Thayer was a no go for the aforementioned narrow slide issue and I really like thayers.

FWIW - I have done quite a lot of experimenting with swapping in and out different components for curiosity's sake mostly. YMMV but I have found the Elkhart magic is in the slide (including lead-pipe), tuning slide and bell. Swap one of these out with a more modern version and the horn loses something. Swapping in a modern valve only improved the horn however.

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:30 pm**

Chuck McAlexander added a Thayer valve to my Conn 8H back in 1990. He installed it on an angle so it wouldn't hit my face and I could retain the narrow slide. It's an absolutely wonderful instrument and plays better than an 88H in both the normal range and the trigger range.

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:47 pm**

I would love to see a picture of that from a few other angles.

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2022 1:23 pm**

Note the very cool curved bell brace. There's a slip joint in the upper left corner to take it apart to clean the valve.

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:12 pm**

Is the whole bell angled like a Gillespie trumpet or is it that just the Thayer that's angled? Very creative adaptation of the Thayer presumably to avoid the awkward narrowness of the Conn slide w/ the Thayer.

Posted: **Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:38 pm**

Just the valve is angled. Chuck called it the "wide face wrap". In the first picture you can see that Chuck added an angle in the slide receiver in order to tip the valve.

Back then some techs would replace the slide crook with a Bach Slide Crook. Conn made some prototypes where they cut the slide crook and added a piece to make it wider. I understand that Conn wanted to make an axial flow model but Christian Lindberg insisted they use his valve instead. I don't know why, but narrow slides play differently. I've played Shires trombones where everything was the same except the width of the slide and there was a difference in the way they played.

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2023 6:27 pm**

Conn did make an 88H with a thayer for a short while. I played with someone who had one, and it was stock from the factory. Not sure of when it was produced, but I would guess it was in the early 2000's.

Chuck did a few of those bent valve axial sections. There was a player who was in the DC Marine Band who had one on a Bach with the narrow slide option that they produced for a while, and I heard from friends back in NYC about some Conns that were modified like the one in this thread. Chuck really did some nice work back in the day!

Jim Scott

Posted: **Sun Jan 01, 2023 8:53 pm**

There are other solutions for bigger modern valves on an 8/88h. Thayer is just not a good option (mechanically, ergonomically) . I'd try the Lindberg.

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