TromboneChat

The thread about seating schemes in brass quintet made me think.

What are the best and worst seating situations you've had in orchestral projects?


For me, generally I like very much being in a row with the trumpets and at least part of the horns, and I hate when the trombones are behind the trumpets (and even worse when the trumpets are behind us). Being directly behind, in front of or beside the timpani is also terrible, especially for the bass trombone and tuba. I know lots of people especially in North America don't really like reverting the section order (i.e. 1st on the left and bass trombone and tuba on the right), but it's quite common in Europe and I don't mind it. I've been on gigs where in one venue we'd be set up one way and the next might in a different venue the set-up for the winds had to be different and suddenly it made more sense to reverse the section.

Specific non-conventional seating that I absolutely loved: I played Schubert 9 with a conductor who thought of that symphony as almost of a concerto for woodwind section. He placed the woodwinds in a semi-circle directly before him, in front of the string sections. Strings were set up with the violins facing; firsts, cellos, violas, seconds. The horns were in the wedge gap between firsts and cellos, and trumpets and timpani in the opposite gap between violas and seconds. We were seated right between the last desks of cellos and violas, in the middle of the orchestra where the flutes and oboes normally would be, with the double basses in a line directly behind us. We could feel the bass in our chair seats, and being surrounded in low strings made our intonation incredibly easy and tight.

Set-up that I hate the most: when some conductors who have no idea what playing in an orchestra is like and don't understand the importance of the concept of sections insist on separating the trombones and placing us in the midst of our respective choir sections in works with colla parte trombones. I get the logic, we're there to reinforce the choir and expected to be an anchor for intonation with amateur choirs in particular. But in practice it just really doesn't work. Last time I was forced to do that I was in the middle of a particularly out of tune group of bass singers, with no hope of properly hearing (let alone blending with) my trombone colleagues, standing uncomfortably on a narrow choir riser and trying to aim my slide between choristers, about 20 feet behind the nearest other instrumental basses and 30 from the organ. Hard to be a solid support for intonation when all you can hear for reference is horribly out of tune singing...and poor alto players get no support beneath them and tire three times as fast.

I have never been seated in amongst the singers. I can imagine that would be very difficult to hear and play! I have played several times with choirs that have intonation issues. It’s worse when the choir is very large, and playing large, modern pieces that can get very loud (e.g., Carmina Burana). Once, the brass section were set up in a row right in front of the choir—really, no space behind us—and it was difficult to hear myself, let alone the rest of the section, or the orchestra. That, and my F-crook nearly knocked a bass singer in the knee! Or perhaps he moved his knee, which jolted me...

Being a Yank, I prefer the 1st on the right, tuba on the left seating, but I’ve played the reverse set-up when the stage required it or when the conductor insisted on it. It’s really not a problem. The biggest problem is my own experience and attitude getting in the way: “It’s not supposed to be like this!” A rehearsal is usually enough to “reset” my thinking and hearing.

I agree about seating in a line with the trumpets. Sitting directly behind them or in front of them can be very taxing on the ears. I usually come away with a headache and increased tinnitus for the night. Balance between the trumpets and trombones when they are seated one directly behind the other is also more difficult. And I know that I really wouldn’t like to sit in front my myself in some loud playing!

Sometimes seating is dictated by the concert venue. My orchestra used to play in churches. After removing the altar furniture (when possible) we still had to be creative in how to seat the players. We had some special chairs for the woodwinds with the front legs longer than the back since they often had to sit on steps. One time we had us 3 trombones placed on chairs at the back of the altar. Nice, high wooden chairs that our trombones whacked against. Good thing this was the days before open wraps or it would have been even worse.

One time we had a VERY shallow stage and we had to put the trumpets and trombones on one side of the woodwinds and the horns on the other. Was a challenge when we had a brass chorale.

Probably the most uncomfortable time I had we were in a very small room and my chair was next to the rim of one of the tympani (my 2nd was in front of another). I felt every whack.

Then there is the dispute among conductors over whether the cellos sit on the edge of the stage or the violas. Or do you put the 1st and 2nd violins opposite each other (I think this was a favorite of Tchaikovsky).

We regularly have three rows of 4 for the woodwinds: flutes and oboes in front, clarinets and bassoons behind, and horns behind them. Trumpets, trombones, and tuba are in an arc from the 1st Horn over almost to the edge of the stage. But we are going to have a new Music Director soon, and this may change.

I played in an orchestra once where the horns, trumpets, and tuba (!) were seated on a back riser going straight across the back, right in front of the percussion. Timpani went to the left of the tuba. The trombones were separated, placed on their own riser island in front of the timpani but pretty far removed from the rest of the orchestra. And even though the tuba was to our right, the section order was not reversed (so I sat to the far left playing bass). That was a weird one.

I've had to do the inverse section thing in a tiny hall where the trombones were squeezed in on the RIGHT side of the orchestra. There was just no room for our slides on the left side so we switched with the horns.

I've sat inches from the timpani heads a million times. I don't mind it - you get used to it!

At this point in time I don't care, sitting anyhow in a paid ensemble and earning again is all that matters

Best:
Brass in one curved line with the 1st trombone and 1st trumpet next to each other. Starting from the tuba at stage left all the way across to the 4 horns on stage right. The tuba and bass trombone have a good connection to the low strings, the 1st trombone likewise with the trumpets. I also like if the bassoons are directly in front of the trombones, at least you have some chance to hear them then. Maybe it isn't ideal for the horns?

Worst:
Orchestra pit partially under the main stage. Unclear view of the conductor, no connection to the soloists or chorous, terrible sound feedback. For an orchestra-only concert, I absolutely hate being behind the trumpets. Timing, intonation, you name it, everything is harder for me. I don't think the trumpets particularly like having the trombones parping away behind them either.

I prefer that the brass aren't on a raised platform but this seems unavoidable if the woodwind (assuming they're in a row in front of the brass) are raised, which is often that case.

In the orchestra in which I perform, the usual seating arrangement has always been to place the horns on the left side of the stage; the woodwind in the centre on risers; the percussion behind the back row of clarinets and bassoons; the trumpets, trombones and tuba on risers on the right side of the stage with the timpani on risers behind the trombones and tuba. This is our standard setup and for most repertoire, it works, though there are definitely times when we feel that there is a disconnect with the rest of the orchestra by putting the loudest instruments in one corner of the stage on their own, which results in a 'them and us' scenario. Internally within the section, we find that the trumpets in front of trombones works better than trumpets next to trombones because each player is more audible to the rest of the section. There are times when the second or third voices are in unison or octaves (e.g. Rachmaninov Symphony No. 2 in E minor, Sibelius Symphony No. 2 in D major) and when the heavy brass are strung out in a long line, that makes it nigh on impossible for the second or third voices to hear their counterpart past intermediate instruments playing at a high dynamic level. This is why we find for the majority of repertoire, trumpets sat in front of trombones and tuba work best to achieve tight integration between all of them.

I made a suggestion to the orchestra management, which we tried out for a couple of concerts. This involved moving the percussion and timpani to the right side of the stage at the back (without risers), where the timpani and heavy brass used to sit on risers. The heavy brass were then placed in a single row on high risers behind the back row of woodwinds, joining with the horns (i.e. the brass formed one line from fourth horn through to tuba). This worked very well indeed when we performed Berlioz Symphonie fantastique and Bruckner Symphony No. 5 in B flat major. The heavy brass were less inclined to blow so loudly and the integration with the winds and horns was far better. Indeed, the overall orchestra blend was superior. This seating arrangement (or similar) is used by a number of German orchestras, including the Berlin Phil. It just works.

The other alternate seating arrangement we used was for Schumann Symphony No. 3 in E flat major. As the trombone section was using my set of vintage German Konzertposaunen instead of our regular large bore American trombones, we managed to swing it so that just the trombones were sat on their own behind the back row of winds. The trumpets remained on the right side with the timpani, the horns on the left side, the winds and trombones in a central block. The difference was immense. The trombones became better integrated with the horns and winds and heard more easily as a separate voice. In particular, the fourth movement, in which the alto trombone plays the melodic line in unison with the first clarinet and first horn, was much better than with a large separation between horn, clarinet and trombone.

Alternative seating arrangements can sometimes become a necessity simply out of the way in which the music is scored. A perfect example is the last three symphonies of Anton Bruckner, in which the tuba plays a dual role to provide the fundamental bass for the trombones and the Wagner tuben. The solution that I have seen work best involves placing the tuba right in the centre of the orchestra at the back with the Wagner tuben and trombones fanning out on either side, reinforcing the pivotal role the tuba plays in the brass section as a whole. This seating arrangement necessitates reversing the normal order of the trombones to keep the bass trombone next to the tuba, but with a bit of mental adjustment, it can work very well, even if you're not used to performing in this setup.

The very worst seating arrangement in my view places the horns in front of the trombones. This never works well because the horns blowing backwards into the trombones usually results in some kind of arms race. Nothing good ever comes of it.

Good post from Edward Solomon

French horns in front of the trombones in an orchestra situation is the most terrible setup I've tried and it was dictated by the conductor. It was an absolute disaster. He thought that was good but it was a nightmare to play like that. Intonation and matching dynamics with the horns in your face was very confusing.

In an orchestra situation trumpets sometimes sits in front of trombones. That is good for the trombone section who then can hear the section very well. Intonation within the section will be good which means the whole orchestra can hear that. I think that works better than the other way around, but it's better to sit next to them when trumpet and trombone are in unison.

It takes a while to get used to have trumpets in your back. It might be good for the audience and as a trombone player you will not miss the trumpet section
This is so common in big bands and is naturally damaging on hearing. I have played a lot in big band so this is what I'm used to. I have hearing loss.


/Tom

I was told by several sound engineers that by rule, timpani should always be placed as far as possible from any bass instruments, because the resonance of timpani is non-harmonic and thus won't reinforce other bass instruments' overtones but will actually be destructive to them, making the basses sound weaker and making it harder for others to tune to them.

They also shouldn't be behind the horns as the vibrations will enter the back-facing bell and create disturbances in the air flow that can be felt all the way to the embouchure.


Yes I hate it when horns are directly in front of us too. As a conductor I've had to place them that way once and felt terrible for the brass players (we were doing Mahler in a church and with the winds between the choir stalls we could only fit 10-11 players in width. 5 per section in the woodwinds and 11 heavy brasses meant no extra space to the side anywhere to fit the 9 horn players, and only option was placing them in a straight line behind the WW and in front of the trombones and trumpets... each line was rised 8 inches higher than the one in front so at least that helped a bit but still far from ideal)

Incidentally, I just recalled that I was once involved in a performance of Haydn The Creation, in which we took the decision to sit reversed as well. The brass sat in a row joining the back row winds - trumpet 2, trumpet 1, alto trombone, tenor trombone, bass trombone, contrabassoon, bassoon 2, bassoon 1, clarinet 1, clarinet 2, horn 1, horn 2. This made for a much easier time of blending with and matching the contrabassoon, since the trumpets are wedded to the timpani anyway and the trombones are therefore placed closer to the chorus and contrabassoon, which is essential for the bass trombone.

There's a church in Edinburgh that I've performed in several times. It's really lovely to play in however is rather tight for space so the standard set up is (as you look at it) tuba/bones/trumpets all on a line at the back and the horns are always in front of us! I absolutely love the french horn however in that environment and as Ed says it becomes an arms race, especially when the conductor loves the heavy squad to open up when required! I should add that we always rehearse in a different place with a different set up which never helps especially when you listen out for a cue and then on the day can't make it out because the positions have all changed!

I've also played in the Caird hall in Dundee several times which is a much better venue but we're stuck in the far right corner and you feel likes there's a disconnect as it's a big stage and a long way to the front row let alone the back.

Nothing to do with set up but I also play in brass bands and the Perth concert hall is terrible to play in as a performer. It's very dry and difficult to hear.

I also remember doing a contest in another venue and the euph player I was sitting diagonally behind and pointing at told me afterwards that he couldn't hear me.

Talking about it is making me realise how much I miss it though, less than ideal set ups/venues or not.

Ross

RoscoTrombone wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:32 am There's a church in Edinburgh that I've performed in several times.

Would that be Canongate Kirk? We play there and trombones are always the back row behind the horns and trumpets and just infront of the percussion. Not ideal as our rehearsal space is a completely different shape where we end up at the opposite side to the horns, almost facing each other across the whole orchestra!

I've played in four orchestras in Edinburgh and three use the normal layout so (as bass trombone) I have the tuba to my left and 2nd trombone to my right. The other orchestra has us the other way round (same way as in a brass band) but on the other side, that's the conductors left.

Ronnie

ronnies wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:22 pm

RoscoTrombone wrote: ↑Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:32 am There's a church in Edinburgh that I've performed in several times.

Would that be Canongate Kirk? We play there and trombones are always the back row behind the horns and trumpets and just infront of the percussion. Not ideal as our rehearsal space is a completely different shape where we end up at the opposite side to the horns, almost facing each other across the whole orchestra!

I've played in four orchestras in Edinburgh and three use the normal layout so (as bass trombone) I have the tuba to my left and 2nd trombone to my right. The other orchestra has us the other way round (same way as in a brass band) but on the other side, that's the conductors left.

Ronnie

Hi Ronnie no I'm talking about St Cuthberts on Lothian Road. I ususally play in Greyfriars in August during the festival. Last year we were on the conductor's right, there wasn't enough space for the trumpets in front of us so they got moved into the back centre with horns on the other side where you can appreciate them fully.

I've never been on the left...I'm like Zoolander

Ross

I once played bass in a band where the conductor decided to seat the trombones backward with the 1st next to the euphonium and the bass next to the horns ( he put horns on the left). Blending with the tubas was pretty much impossible. I was able to get the conductor to switch around the section. From my experience, seating the trombones behind the trumpets is usually only done when there is a space restriction. I find it difficult to blend and I prefer to sit next to the trumpets but it really isn't that bad.

up until recently, we were always in the back rows/stage left behind the string basses, tubas, euphs and bassoons. back row/center stage were the trumpets and french horns.

for the past few concerts, we've been moved to next-to-last row/center stage with the tubas and strings basses behind us. french horns have taken our old spot. trumpets are to our right. euphs are directly in front of us and they typically sit in front of their tbone counterpart (majority of the time they double the bone parts). bassoons now sit between the french horns and the cellos. our conductor likes having the brass play directly into the center of the audience.

worst layout (smaller ensembles): being seated directly behind the french horns. almost as bad: seated right in front of the tympani.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:41 pm Sometimes seating is dictated by the concert venue. My orchestra used to play in churches. After removing the altar furniture (when possible) we still had to be creative in how to seat the players. We had some special chairs for the woodwinds with the front legs longer than the back since they often had to sit on steps. One time we had us 3 trombones placed on chairs at the back of the altar. Nice, high wooden chairs that our trombones whacked against. Good thing this was the days before open wraps or it would have been even worse.

One time we had a VERY shallow stage and we had to put the trumpets and trombones on one side of the woodwinds and the horns on the other. Was a challenge when we had a brass chorale.

Probably the most uncomfortable time I had we were in a very small room and my portable massage chair was next to the rim of one of the tympani (my 2nd was in front of another). I felt every whack.

Then there is the dispute among conductors over whether the cellos sit on the edge of the stage or the violas. Or do you put the 1st and 2nd violins opposite each other (I think this was a favorite of Tchaikovsky).

We regularly have three rows of 4 for the woodwinds: flutes and oboes in front, clarinets and bassoons behind, and horns behind them. Trumpets, trombones, and tuba are in an arc from the 1st Horn over almost to the edge of the stage. But we are going to have a new Music Director soon, and this may change.

What is the contrast among symphony and mezzanine seats? Is ensemble or overhang seating better?

For those of you play in Orchestras who decides on parts? Do you keep the same chair or are they rotated? Is it acceptable for people to make up their own parts like these normal rotating recliner seats?
Would you give up your seat at a concert no matter how informal for someone who doesn't attend rehearsals and hardly ever turns up for concerts? Or would you give up your seat for someone who comes to rehearsals but not concerts even if they are of a lower standard?

I think I know the answers but just wondered what common practice is.

In my orchestra we had 3 good players, 2 of whom play alto and bass as well as tenor. We rotated seats by concert. As section leader I got "first dibs" on which of the 3 classical concerts I played what, but each of us played each chair for one concert. For Pops style concerts we mixed parts. Players were expected at all rehearsals unless cleared in advance. When somebody couldn't play a concert we hired a sub and the sub usually wound up playing 2nd or 3rd. Often subs played 2 rehearsals and the concert (we normally had 8 rehearsals per concert). Subs did not get "promoted" because they played better. If they chose to join the section they would get similar treatment as above.

Note that we were a semi-pro orchestra. Not Union and only paid a small stipend per concert.

I think my ideal set up is your typical "yank" one. Tuba on stage left, followed by the bass trombone, then the tenors, trumpet 1 and so on, to the horns stage right.

As far as worst? In college our symphony orchestra had a holiday concert that we shared with our biggest choir. For our finale, we did a joint piece. The stage we played on was very deep but not very wide. So our 100 man choir was in the back on risers in front of shells. That ate up about half the stage's depth. In front of them was the percussion and then the strings. All of the winds got pushed into the wings of the stage. I played bass so I was in the corner behind the ropes closest to the front of the stage with the tubist behind me and the curtain touching my right arm. It was wild. You couldn't hear anything that wasn't directly around you. Blend must have been horrible. Not that you could hear if it was bad or not anyway.