TromboneChat

Hey guys!

I'm currently working on learning how to tongue correctly.  Throughout my playing career I have had very little success with articulating.  Up until my senior year of my undergrad I used a "da" attack for everything, so I was unable to get a clear attack at the front of the note. About 2 years ago I began to focus on that more and I started to, unknowingly, tongue between my teeth. I've been aware of it for the past couple months and have been working on correcting this because whenever I articulate quickly, tonguing through my teeth disturbs my embouchure. 

I've had little to no success working on this. My question for you guys, are there any exercises you could recommend?  I'm not sure how to work on it methodically.

My other query is, some people say to tongue normally in the middle to high register and tongue between the teeth in the low register.  Is this typical?

Thanks in advance guys!

You really need a teacher handy who can listen to you and offer suggestions. You can work on the Arbans or Simone Mantia exercises until your lips fall off, but if you're doing it wrong, the book won't fix that. Listen to recordings of pro players, and try to emulate them. Go hear live music if you can. Play with other musicians in local groups. Still, you need a teacher. You might be able to get a teacher on Skype if you can't find one local. Some here may offer.

How is your double-tonguing progressing? Are you working with an instructor on it?

...Geezer

Many players use "da" for everything, and for ther it works. If toguing between the teeth disturbs your attack it is not working. You are telling what language you talk. Many use a dorsal attack since it works with the way they talk. I do. I do not use the tip of my tongue when saying do de da.
I use the middle upper part of my tongue, and that is how I most often artikulate when playin.
An English man say do you want a cup of tea? With an English "T". I answer yes I do like a cup of tea. With a Swedishy accent, my "t" is way different.

There are actually no uneverselly right way to tongue. You must find the way that works for you.
My guess is that you should work on you air controll.

With a good air controll you can play tones that sound almost like it tongued.

Look up the six note, check Sam Burtis explanation.

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 24, 2017, 06:56AMHow is your double-tonguing progressing? Are you working with an instructor on it?

...Geezer

The "ka" part of my articulations are usually more clear.  I have trouble getting a consistent "ta"

Quote from: tbonegeek93 on Aug 24, 2017, 07:23AMThe "ka" part of my articulations are usually more clear.  I have trouble getting a consistent "ta"

Then you might not be double-tonguing completely correctly. Your instructor can help you to clarify it and in so doing, quite possibly clarify the other.

Do you have a brass instructor?

...Geezer

The tongue is a very complex and adaptable muscle that can learn to do lots of motions and shapes, but not everybody's mouth is the same so you need to spend time working in lots of different ways to see what works for you and then concentrate on that.

Your K is clearer... Have you worked on G, and something between D and G? Some people have success with "dorsal" or "anchor" tonguing where you keep the tip down and use part of your tongue farther back to articulate.

Also try all of the vowels - day-day-day, dee-dee-dee, die-die-die, doh-doh-doh, du-du-du.  And the same with G and K.

Triple and double using all of those variations.

Doodle tongue, also using all of the vowels.

And what I do is a D farther back, near the bump in the top.  D and G for double and triple.

Try practicing your tonguing with earplugs in so you can hear what's going on inside your mouth.  Clarity inside usually means clarity coming out of the bell.

Record your practice and listen to it critically.

Your articulation becomes much more versatile when you work on all the possibilities, and then you can concentrate on the parts of it that are most useful to you.

ALSO: Practice with no tongue at all.  Many "tonguing problems" are really response problems unrelated to the tongue.

What Doug said. Especially this:

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Aug 24, 2017, 08:47AMALSO: Practice with no tongue at all.  Many "tonguing problems" are really response problems unrelated to the tongue.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Aug 24, 2017, 08:47AMThe tongue is a very complex and adaptable muscle that can learn to do lots of motions and shapes, but not everybody's mouth is the same so you need to spend time working in lots of different ways to see what works for you and then concentrate on that.

Your K is clearer... Have you worked on G, and something between D and G? Some people have success with "dorsal" or "anchor" tonguing where you keep the tip down and use part of your tongue farther back to articulate.

Also try all of the vowels - day-day-day, dee-dee-dee, die-die-die, doh-doh-doh, du-du-du.  And the same with G and K.

Triple and double using all of those variations.

Doodle tongue, also using all of the vowels.

And what I do is a D farther back, near the bump in the top.  D and G for double and triple.

Try practicing your tonguing with earplugs in so you can hear what's going on inside your mouth.  Clarity inside usually means clarity coming out of the bell.

Record your practice and listen to it critically.

Your articulation becomes much more versatile when you work on all the possibilities, and then you can concentrate on the parts of it that are most useful to you.

ALSO: Practice with no tongue at all.  Many "tonguing problems" are really response problems unrelated to the tongue.


Thanks for the advice!  I'll give a different syllables a try for sure.  I've been working a little on using no tongue.  I may need to visit that a little more.

Slow response has been a problem of mine since I've been working more and practicing less. Getting back into scales and playing some licks without articulating at all seems to be getting things back on track. Slower lines my articulations are good, but some fast lines things get muddy I think it's mostly slide technique. Then after that more scales with all vowels, double and triple tongue, starting on different tongue positions.

Speaking of slide technique -
Listen CAREFULLY to be sure your slide and tongue are coordinated.  Most players have a problem with that and don't know it.

QuoteAnd what I do is a D farther back, near the bump in the top.  D and G for double and triple.Doug, out of curiosity, your D near the bump, is that a dorsal D or a tip of the tongue D?

Quote from: hyperbolica on Aug 24, 2017, 06:54AMYou really need a teacher handy who can listen to you and offer suggestions. You can work on the Arbans or Simone Mantia exercises until your lips fall off, but if you're doing it wrong, the book won't fix that. Listen to recordings of pro players, and try to emulate them. Go hear live music if you can. Play with other musicians in local groups. Still, you need a teacher. You might be able to get a teacher on Skype if you can't find one local. Some here may offer.

Just a note on finding a teacher for this.... I think somebody like Doug would be spot on.  I know that for several years, I had a teacher that had a very different mouth shape and tongue than I do.  He did something very different than what actually works for me.  Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time trying to correct a 'wrong' that did not exist.  Make sure that the advise you are getting is solid.  In this context that means somebody that has dealt with different mouth types/embouchures and are willing to learn with you to figure out what you need.

From somebody that is still trying to undo some basic bad habits in my articulation, good luck,
Andy

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 25, 2017, 07:28AMDoug, out of curiosity, your D near the bump, is that a dorsal D or a tip of the tongue D?
I've been paying attention to my tongue action for a few days so I could answer that fairly accurately without getting an MRI...

I definitely do legato tonguing with the tip on the bump.  Also legato double and triple that way.
For harder tonguing, it seems like the tip moves slightly forward but I'm using sort of a dorsal approach - the articulation is with a larger area slightly behind the tip; it still feels like the contact point is on the bump.
It does not feel like the articulation point changes at all for different ranges, but the sides do go up to contact the molars and top of my mouth, creating a groove down the middle for high range.

My use of D and G means that the double and triple action occurs farther forward than what I've seen in the MRI's.  That allows me to keep the center groove happening so that I can double and triple tongue all the way to the top of my range.

I have been able to get a cleaner hard tongue dorsally, but it seemed much harder to get it to work at all for legato. 

I'm not sure if "dorsal" and "anchor" are being used interchangeably here...
I don't anchor the tip.  I've tried that and I can do it but that doesn't offer me any advantage.
Try transitioning between dorsal for the clean hard tongue, and flicking the tip for legato.  It took me a long time to develop that but it works very well (for me).

I'm a little confused now.  I was under the impression dorsal tonguing and anchor tonguing were the same and the terms were interchangeable.
Could someone please explain how dorsal tonguing differs from anchor tonguing.

I'm not sure I know the difference but here is my guess.

I think if your tongue is long enough you can "anchor" the tip on the bottom of your mouth behind the lower teeth, and still reach up with the dorsal part to interrupt the air flow.

But some tongues are longer than others, some roofs of the mouth or the bump are farther away than others.  So if your tongue is shorter you might only be able to reach with the dorsal by straining, or you might not reach at all and your tongue has to float up.  It might float up to between your teeth, and you might think you're tonguing between the teeth when you're really dorsal tonguing.

It follows logically (to me) that if dorsal tonguing without the anchor for a shorter tongue works, then maybe the anchor isn't all that necessary in the first place.  Maybe your tongue can then be more relaxed. 

Just speculating though. 

Here is a copy of the Claude Gordon tongue level exercises:

http://blog.fullpartituras.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/CLAUDE-GORDON-THONGUE-LEVEL-EXERCISES.pdf

He says do exercise part 1 many times a day until it becomes natural.  Hee, hee. 

What does Joe do?

In my previous posts I was using "dorsal" to simply indicate using part of the top of the tongue rather than the tip.  I would distinguish that from "anchor tonguing" which is keeping the tip down in the gully or behind the bottom teeth while dorsal tonguing.

I've found that 15 minutes of practicing using no tongue at all, in all registers really cleans up the tongued note production. It's also a valuable way to improve focus, by playing 8th notes rising in semitones, going past top Bb and beyond..

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Aug 31, 2017, 05:22PMIn my previous posts I was using "dorsal" to simply indicate using part of the top of the tongue rather than the tip.  I would distinguish that from "anchor tonguing" which is keeping the tip down in the gully or behind the bottom teeth while dorsal tonguing.
Yes I understod you perfectly, (actually I do use the tip of my tongue for legato my self.)
I do have a long tongue, because of that my tonguing would be called "anchor tonguing".
I use D and G rather then T and K.

Quote from: Pre59 on Sep 01, 2017, 01:35AMI've found that 15 minutes of practicing using no tongue at all, in all registers really cleans up the tongued note production. It's also a valuable way to improve focus, by playing 8th notes rising in semitones, going past top Bb and beyond..
That is what I do every morning, been doing that since the 60s, (thanks to Carl-Otto Naesén.)
I really like that.

Quote from: timothy42b on Aug 31, 2017, 04:15PMHere is a copy of the Claude Gordon tongue level exercises:

http://blog.fullpartituras.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/CLAUDE-GORDON-THONGUE-LEVEL-EXERCISES.pdf

He says do exercise part 1 many times a day until it becomes natural.  Hee, hee. 
Some things Claude Gordon said I like. Some things make just puzzled. I don´t agree with everything he said.

So after experimenting for about a week, I've become pretty comfortable with tonguing around the ridge of my mouth not far back from where the gums meet the teeth.  I haven't been able to get that "pop" at the front of the note, but I can get a lot more of a consistent sound across the register.  A lot of what Doug Elliot said helped.  I've also been practicing a few things with no tongue as well and that has helped with my air stream. 

Thanks again guys!

So after experimenting for about a week, I've become pretty comfortable with tonguing around the ridge of my mouth not far back from where the gums meet the teeth.  I haven't been able to get that "pop" at the front of the note, but I can get a lot more of a consistent sound across the register.  A lot of what Doug Elliot said helped.  I've also been practicing a few things with no tongue as well and that has helped with my air stream. 

Thanks again guys!