TromboneChat

Are players predisposed to a 70/30 or to a 50/50 embouchure?

Can players effectively choose 70/30 or 50/50? Can they effectively charge?

Does it appear that 70/30 predominates? Why might that be?

It is true that a mouthpiece placement with around 70% top lip and 30% bottom lip is pretty common, but everyone has a different face and so this placement isn't ideal for a lot of players. Some players will do better with an even high mouthpiece placement and some will do better closer to 50/50. Less common, but still correct for certain musicians, is to place the mouthpiece with more lower lip inside, sometimes a great deal.

One lip or another should predominate inside the mouthpiece, so 50/50 placement is not usually recommended.

The only way a musician can effectively change your mouthpiece placement is if it happens to be the best placement for their anatomical features. Sometimes just a little adjustment can make a big difference, other times players need a big change of mouthpiece placement. There are other aspects to embouchure technique that also come into play too.

Dave

When playing I pay much more attention to how it feels on my face than what it looks like. Usually you will naturally find a spot that is comfortable for you and works with your embouchure.

It's entirely up to that person's jaw and dental structure. I play closer to 50/50.

There is no correct way, but fighting the dental structure you were born with (oh XYZ is 70/30 so I need to do that too) is detrimental. It makes no sense to fight against placing the mouthpiece where your teeth dictate it should go. It's even worse when you are a completely different air stream type (ie upstream, the rarer type) and you're trying to place your mouthpiece more on your upper lip.

The 1/3 upper 2/3 lower advice given in the older edition of Arbans is some of the worst advice you could put into a method that is used so widely.

Harrison, you know I've seen you play and I pretty much analyze everybody. You're a typical case of somebody who thinks they're 50/50 but you're not that embouchure type at all. You may feel that way and look like 50/50 on the outside, but that's not what's going on inside.

One clue is that a 50/50 Reinhardt IIIB would not be able to play tenor on a 106 rim size.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:40 pm Harrison, you know I've seen you play and I pretty much analyze everybody. You're a typical case of somebody who thinks they're 50/50 but you're not that embouchure type at all. You may feel that way and look like 50/50 on the outside, but that's not what's going on inside.

One clue is that a 50/50 Reinhardt IIIB would not be able to play tenor on a 106 rim size.

What am I then? Even the mark on my upper lip seems to indicate that not very much upper lip is in the mouthpiece.

I believe you that I probably have no idea what my placement is, and would like to hear what it's actually going on. I'm at least 99% sure I'm a downstream player, haha!

You are the same as the majority of players, what Reinhardt called IIIA and I usually call Very High Placement. Any name for it is somewhat deceptive, it doesn't always look like 70/30 but that's really closer to what it is. I'm not going to write extensively about it here, I'm sure you can find other resources such as Dave Wikin's videos.

Aww, I don't want to be lumped in with all the plebs...

Arnold Jacobs said that the ideal position would be 50/50 because it allowed the longest possible vibrating surface. He also said you should place where you get the best sound, which is what his followers remember. Some of them are a little touchy about it. But the weird thing is I found my copy of the Farkas book with all the photos the other day, and Jacobs does look 50/50 to my eyes. He's about the only one.

I haven't come across the 50/50 recommendation from any other source. I'm a Very High Placement, per Doug, and if I slip away from it things don't work as well.

Arnold Jacobs said that the ideal position would be 50/50 because it allowed the longest possible vibrating surface. He also said you should place where you get the best sound, which is what his followers remember.

Jacobs was wrong. With due respect to Jacobs as a tubist and for his musical coaching and breathing pedagogy.

That's part of the problem with admiring a particular pedagogue above all others, you end up taking the bad with the good. None of us is right all the time.

My mouthpiece placement, by the way, is probably about 80% or more lower lip inside. I place the rim right on the red of my upper lip - exactly what an awful lot of brass teachers say is completely wrong. It might be completely wrong for them, but it's absolutely the best place for me.


Dave

The vibrating surface length is only partly related to anything. The vibrations that go into the horn are puffs of air at the frequency of the standing wave that corresponds to the note you're playing. Some facial structures support it one way and others best support it another way. That's why there are different embouchure types, with different placements and mechanical characteristics. The ideal position is what works for each individual.

Jacobs talked about using a shift to much more top lip to play high. He was also a IIIA, but that seemed to be the extent of his understanding of how it worked.

I don´t remember Arnold Jacobs recomending 50/50, neither any picture where he is playing that way.
But, it is often very hard to see how the lips are in the mouthpiece.
I believe I played with more lower lip in the mouthpiece until 1964. I got a big blow on my mouth, my mouth was sawn together, when I latter started to play I could not find the usual position. I do play something like 70/30 I think.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:34 am Arnold Jacobs said that the ideal position would be 50/50 because it allowed the longest possible vibrating surface. He also said you should place where you get the best sound, which is what his followers remember. Some of them are a little touchy about it. But the weird thing is I found my copy of the Farkas book with all the photos the other day, and Jacobs does look 50/50 to my eyes. He's about the only one.

I haven't come across the 50/50 recommendation from any other source. I'm a Very High Placement, per Doug, and if I slip away from it things don't work as well.

For many tuba players 50/50 may be just where it would align based on the large diameter of the mouthpiece, especially for young tuba players. At 50/50 the rim of the mouthpiece would be very close to the nose. Also, Jacobs was probably referring to tuba players the majority of the time if he did say this.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:50 pm You are the same as the majority of players, what Reinhardt called IIIA and I usually call Very High Placement. Any name for it is somewhat deceptive, it doesn't always look like 70/30 but that's really closer to what it is. I'm not going to write extensively about it here, I'm sure you can find other resources such as Dave Wikin's videos.

Here's the video where I describe Doug's 3 basic embouchure types and show examples on different brass instruments.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:34 am For many tuba players 50/50 may be just where it would align based on the large diameter of the mouthpiece, especially for young tuba players. At 50/50 the rim of the mouthpiece would be very close to the nose. Also, Jacobs was probably referring to tuba players the majority of the time if he did say this.

Very High Placement embouchure type seems to be the most common, regardless of instrument. The same basic embouchure patterns exist on all the brass, and I suspect brass musicians would end up playing best as a single type, regardless of what instrument they happen to play. In other words, a professional tubist playing as a particular embouchure type would still play best as that same embouchure type if he or she had decided to play trumpet or horn instead.

Yes, with low brass players you do often see the nose or chin getting in the way of a placement that might be ideal. My extremely low placement has the bottom of the mouthpiece pretty much right on the chin. When I used to play tuba I never felt that I could get the placement quite low enough because my chin got in the way. There is still always a natural tendency for one particular embouchure type to work best and if the nose or chin is getting in the way of the mouthpiece placement that's not going to change the individual musician's best embouchure type.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:33 am I don´t remember Arnold Jacobs recomending 50/50, neither any picture where he is playing that way.

I think you're right, I've gone through some reviews I wrote about Jacobs's pedagogy and don't see anything related to a 50/50 placement. Regardless, I feel that Jacobs is a poor resource for embouchure technique. His approach to embouchure development was mostly to ignore it and concentrate on musical expression.

Here's some photos of Jacobs's chops, I believe from Phillip Farkas's "The Art of Brass Player." Don't get me started on what Farkas wrote about embouchure in there, it's mostly wrong.



While those photos alone aren't enough to definitely call "Very High Placement" embouchure type, they certainly suggest it. Particularly if he admitted to moving the placement up higher for the high register, that's a typical feature with some players of that embouchure type.

Dave

Wilktone wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:13 pm
Here's the video where I describe Doug's 3 basic embouchure types and show examples on different brass instruments.

Dave

Thanks, Dave.

Very interesting. I won't change a thing, of course, but I learned a lot. Time to get in front of a mirror to see where I am!

That's crazy. His lips look like they split the cup in half nearly 50/50...

Appearance and function are two different things. Embouchure types are defined by function. I just use appearance descriptions because they're usually more obvious.

Doug & Dave - in your teaching, when do you introduce equipment change to your students? For example if you met a struggling student who you know is playing on a smaller-than-optimal mouthpiece, would you work on mechanics first or just move them to a bigger rim?

Hi, Wishbone.

Doug & Dave - in your teaching, when do you introduce equipment change to your students? For example if you met a struggling student who you know is playing on a smaller-than-optimal mouthpiece, would you work on mechanics first or just move them to a bigger rim?

I'm not much of a gear head, so I tend to avoid recommending a specific piece/size/brand of equipment. If I suspect that a student would do better with an equipment change I usually will send them to another resource for those specifics.

My general approach is to hold off suggesting an equipment changes until things are progressed enough that I have a good idea that what I suggest is the right thing. For example, if a student is type switching between Very High Placement and Medium High Placement embouchure types I wouldn't recommend a mouthpiece change unless I'm fairly confident that it's the correct recommendation.

Doug is the real expert here, so maybe he will be able to summarize his strategies better.

Dave

It depends on the individual situation but I almost always say fix the mechanics first, then you'l be in a better position to evaluate equipment.

Makes sense, thank you

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:40 pm Harrison, you know I've seen you play and I pretty much analyze everybody. You're a typical case of somebody who thinks they're 50/50 but you're not that embouchure type at all. You may feel that way and look like 50/50 on the outside, but that's not what's going on inside.

One clue is that a 50/50 Reinhardt IIIB would not be able to play tenor on a 106 rim size.

This post is old so I don't know whether anyone will even see my post, but here goes...

I can relate to what Harrison is saying. When I took my first lesson with Doug and he told me I was a IIIA (very high placement) I was surprised. Everyone who has ever looked at my embouchure has agreed with me that I am about as close to 50/50 as can be. After my first lesson I tried moving the mouthpiece up to 70/30, but it invariably slides back down to something closer to 50/50 (actually it may be 55/45 these days).

I'm interested in what Doug says in this quote, "You're a typical case of somebody who thinks they're 50/50 but you're not that embouchure type at all. You may feel that way and look like 50/50 on the outside, but that's not what's going on inside." I think that's exactly right for me. I think I am 50/50 because I look 50/50(ish). But I have no doubt that what Doug says is correct. It may look like that, but it does not function as that. I’m treating my embouchure as Doug suggested (IIIA) even though it doesn’t look like 70/30 to me...yet. Who knows how it will change with time and work.


Mike

One of the mistakes I made early on when learning about how Doug describes embouchure types was to use the outside appearance. As he mentioned above, the types are distinguished by how they function. If your upper lip predominates (meaning you're blowing downstream) and you push your mouthpiece and lips together up towards the nose to ascend, then you belong to the Very High Placement type, even if your placement is closer to 50/50.

And don't forget, PosauneCat... you're having problems .... a sign that you're doing something wrong.

This is the biggest mistake brass players make. Having playing problems but still assuming that whatever they're doing is correct... Why?

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:08 pm And don't forget, PosauneCat... you're having problems .... a sign that you're doing something wrong.

This is the biggest mistake brass players make. Having playing problems but still assuming that whatever they're doing is correct... Why?

Well, that’s why I came to you for a lesson. I didn’t mean to imply that I thought I was doing things properly. I’m trying to put into practice what you talked to me about. I’m sure it will take some time. I think you may have misunderstood my post. I was agreeing with you and I hope to learn more about the pivot system.

Mike

Wilktone wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:28 pm One of the mistakes I made early on when learning about how Doug describes embouchure types was to use the outside appearance. As he mentioned above, the types are distinguished by how they function. If your upper lip predominates (meaning you're blowing downstream) and you push your mouthpiece and lips together up towards the nose to ascend, then you belong to the Very High Placement type, even if your placement is closer to 50/50.

Yeah, that’s what I was saying. I was agreeing with Doug’s assessment that what your placement looks like isn’t necessarily how it functions. That’s why I’m trying my best to implement some changes Doug suggested during my lesson.

Wilktone wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:31 am It is true that a mouthpiece placement with around 70% top lip and 30% bottom lip is pretty common, but everyone has a different face and so this placement isn't ideal for a lot of players. Some players will do better with an even high mouthpiece placement and some will do better closer to 50/50. Less common, but still correct for certain musicians, is to place the mouthpiece with more lower lip inside, sometimes a great deal.

One lip or another should predominate inside the mouthpiece, so 50/50 placement is not usually recommended.

The only way a musician can effectively change your mouthpiece placement is if it happens to be the best placement for their anatomical features. Sometimes just a little adjustment can make a big difference, other times players need a big change of mouthpiece placement. There are other aspects to embouchure technique that also come into play too.

Dave

Dave,

One thing that confuses me is that Reinhardt said you should first focus on what feels right and not focus so much on sound. I’ve been trying daily to move my mouthpiece higher. I’m a IIIA but it doesn’t look like I have a 70/30 split, more like 55/45, maybe 60/40, it’s so hard to quantify. When I consciously move the mouthpiece up I can feel it trying to settle down lower. Should I fight the tendency to let it go where it feels right in this case and keep trying to move it a bit higher? So far, after about 7 weeks back after a ridiculously long time away, going with what feels right hasn’t worked, so I’m clearly doing something wrong. Per Doug Elliott’s advice I am learning to pivot diagonally up to the right in the higher range and the opposite when approaching the low range. I can feel that working, but it is not comfortable yet. So once again I find myself stuck between going with what feels better or patiently trying to change the MP placement. I also read the Reinhardt said to not work in more than two things at once. Maybe I’m too stupid and should only focus on one thing at a time!

Mike

You should not be consciously trying to change your placement. And nobdy said "first focus on what feels right.".

Learn to use your pivot by where it sounds best.
Use the formation we talked about.
Freebuzz the way we talked about.
Apply those things to playing the horn.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:43 am You should not be consciously trying to change your placement. And nobdy said "first focus on what feels right.".

Learn to use your pivot by where it sounds best.
Use the formation we talked about.
Freebuzz the way we talked about.
Apply those things to playing the horn.

I know you didn’t say the part about about feeling over sound. It was quoted on Dave Wilkin’s page concerning R’s sensation theory. “...it is important to cover Reinhardt's Sensation Theory. This approach to playing a brass instrument has the player relying primarily by feel rather than on sound.” Concerning the rest, I’m doing my best. The only thing I still can’t do is free buzzing in the manner you showed me. I’ve never been able to free buzz. This stuff is all new to me. Thanks for clarifying the placement issue. That really helps.

For now, your freebuzzing needs to be different from the way you play because you need to exaggerate the bottom lip pulling in. That's so you start to develop control over those muscles across the whole "southern hemisphere". You CAN freebuzz in you pull your bottom lip in far enough.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:31 am For now, your freebuzzing needs to be different from the way you play because you need to exaggerate the bottom lip pulling in. That's so you start to develop control over those muscles across the whole "southern hemisphere". You CAN freebuzz in you pull your bottom lip in far enough.

OK, I just exaggerated the hell out of the bottom lip placement and did indeed create a buzz. It wasn't pretty, but it was a distinguishable note, actually two, a middle Bb and then high Bb

High and low placement, downstream and upstream, I always believed that there is one of the lips that should make the vibration or be domination inside the mouthpiece. I only teach kids 9 to 18 years old so I see a lot of different mouths. But I have to say I nearly never focus on embouchure.

Leif

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:31 am For now, your freebuzzing needs to be different from the way you play because you need to exaggerate the bottom lip pulling in. That's so you start to develop control over those muscles across the whole "southern hemisphere". You CAN freebuzz in you pull your bottom lip in far enough.

Hey Doug,

I just watched the portion of the video that I made of our lesson where you talked about this. I won't say I'm good at it, but it's getting better and I think I have a better understanding of the mechanics of it. That and the pivot is all I'm working on right. I need to do another lesson. Sorry it's taking a while for me to get it.

Savio wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:03 pm High and low placement, downstream and upstream, I always believed that there is one of the lips that should make the vibration or be domination inside the mouthpiece. I only teach kids 9 to 18 years old so I see a lot of different mouths. But I have to say I nearly never focus on embouchure.

Leif

Hey Leif,

I never thought about embouchure when I was younger, but I do now. I'm clearly doing things wrong now, so I probably was back then too but learned to compensate in bad ways (too much pressure, mouthpiece sticking in place due to dry lip playing, etc.). I'm bummed that no former teachers saw what was happening, but because it sounded good and I could handle the repertoire, I guess they didn't notice I was doing everything wrong. It's better to get it right the first time than trying to fix it. That much I know.

mike

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:00 pm

Savio wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:03 pm High and low placement, downstream and upstream, I always believed that there is one of the lips that should make the vibration or be domination inside the mouthpiece. I only teach kids 9 to 18 years old so I see a lot of different mouths. But I have to say I nearly never focus on embouchure.

Leif

Hey Leif,

I never thought about embouchure when I was younger, but I do now. I'm clearly doing things wrong now, so I probably was back then too but learned to compensate in bad ways (too much pressure, mouthpiece sticking in place due to dry lip playing, etc.). I'm bummed that no former teachers saw what was happening, but because it sounded good and I could handle the repertoire, I guess they didn't notice I was doing everything wrong. It's better to get it right the first time than trying to fix it. That much I know.

mike

Mike, you might think you do everything wrong but its never like that. Think more about what you do well and find positive things about your playing. We all feel like you sometimes. I suggest you take a online lesson with Doug Elliott or a really good teacher nearby.

Leif

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:36 am

Wilktone wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:31 am It is true that a mouthpiece placement with around 70% top lip and 30% bottom lip is pretty common, but everyone has a different face and so this placement isn't ideal for a lot of players. Some players will do better with an even high mouthpiece placement and some will do better closer to 50/50. Less common, but still correct for certain musicians, is to place the mouthpiece with more lower lip inside, sometimes a great deal.

One lip or another should predominate inside the mouthpiece, so 50/50 placement is not usually recommended.

The only way a musician can effectively change your mouthpiece placement is if it happens to be the best placement for their anatomical features. Sometimes just a little adjustment can make a big difference, other times players need a big change of mouthpiece placement. There are other aspects to embouchure technique that also come into play too.

Dave

Dave,

One thing that confuses me is that Reinhardt said you should first focus on what feels right and not focus so much on sound. I’ve been trying daily to move my mouthpiece higher. I’m a IIIA but it doesn’t look like I have a 70/30 split, more like 55/45, maybe 60/40, it’s so hard to quantify. When I consciously move the mouthpiece up I can feel it trying to settle down lower. Should I fight the tendency to let it go where it feels right in this case and keep trying to move it a bit higher? So far, after about 7 weeks back after a ridiculously long time away, going with what feels right hasn’t worked, so I’m clearly doing something wrong. Per Doug Elliott’s advice I am learning to pivot diagonally up to the right in the higher range and the opposite when approaching the low range. I can feel that working, but it is not comfortable yet. So once again I find myself stuck between going with what feels better or patiently trying to change the MP placement. I also read the Reinhardt said to not work in more than two things at once. Maybe I’m too stupid and should only focus on one thing at a time!

Mike

I think, and I'm probably totally wrong, that there is confusion on these ratios 70/30, etc, between up/down placement (the line formed by where my lips meet is 30% of the way up the cup), vs angle of the mouthpiece on the lips. If I take a picture of me playing it looks like, for me, that line is nearly 50/50. BUT! As Doug and Dave say, it's not all about what it looks like, but it's about the mechanics of what's going on. Looks can deceive. I know, can feel, and actively pursue having my top lip dominate what happens inside the cup. My jaw goes back for the upper register. I do not feel the mouthpiece move up/down over my lips, ever, other than for pedal tones. I do know and feel that the angle changes. My lips slide over my teeth along with the mouthpiece, as my jaw moves and the register changes, however.

If you are saying "I need to move the mp UP on face to get to 70/30", I think you may be missing the critical point, which is that jaw motion forwards/backwards can also make the embouchure function 70/30. It's not like moving a circle up and down over a straight line you drew on a piece of paper.

If the mouthpiece is sliding into a different spot when you play, that doesn't sound like it's being placed in an anatomically correct spot for you. I have heard of teachers (who have no business discussing embouchure) changing a young student's mouthpiece placement up/down because of what is written in the arban book. Again, that is a flat picture with a circle drawn over it. The change usually doesn't end well. How can you play if the mouthpiece doesn't feel right?

All this to say, what Doug is saying about free buzzing and bringing the lower lip in sounds right! That sounds like a jaw movement, forward/backwards, and a movement of the lip over the teeth. That doesn't sound like an up down movement of the metal physically on your face like you're visualizing.

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:55 am I know you didn’t say the part about about feeling over sound. It was quoted on Dave Wilkin’s page concerning R’s sensation theory. “...it is important to cover Reinhardt's Sensation Theory. This approach to playing a brass instrument has the player relying primarily by feel rather than on sound.”

Doug and I were just talking about that article last night. In retrospect, I made the exact same error that Reinhardt did in my attempt to make his pedagogy more accessible. By being too complete, I (and Reinhardt) inadvertently made it more complicated than it should be.

Getting the correct feel is very important, but the feel needs to be correct in the first place. When it's not correct, what feels "right" might start working against you. I'm about to post a new topic here that you might find interesting.

Dave

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:35 pm

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:36 am

Dave,

One thing that confuses me is that Reinhardt said you should first focus on what feels right and not focus so much on sound. I’ve been trying daily to move my mouthpiece higher. I’m a IIIA but it doesn’t look like I have a 70/30 split, more like 55/45, maybe 60/40, it’s so hard to quantify. When I consciously move the mouthpiece up I can feel it trying to settle down lower. Should I fight the tendency to let it go where it feels right in this case and keep trying to move it a bit higher? So far, after about 7 weeks back after a ridiculously long time away, going with what feels right hasn’t worked, so I’m clearly doing something wrong. Per Doug Elliott’s advice I am learning to pivot diagonally up to the right in the higher range and the opposite when approaching the low range. I can feel that working, but it is not comfortable yet. So once again I find myself stuck between going with what feels better or patiently trying to change the MP placement. I also read the Reinhardt said to not work in more than two things at once. Maybe I’m too stupid and should only focus on one thing at a time!

Mike

I think, and I'm probably totally wrong, that there is confusion on these ratios 70/30, etc, between up/down placement (the line formed by where my lips meet is 30% of the way up the cup), vs angle of the mouthpiece on the lips. If I take a picture of me playing it looks like, for me, that line is nearly 50/50. BUT! As Doug and Dave say, it's not all about what it looks like, but it's about the mechanics of what's going on. Looks can deceive. I know, can feel, and actively pursue having my top lip dominate what happens inside the cup. My jaw goes back for the upper register. I do not feel the mouthpiece move up/down over my lips, ever, other than for pedal tones. I do know and feel that the angle changes. My lips slide over my teeth along with the mouthpiece, as my jaw moves and the register changes, however.

If you are saying "I need to move the mp UP on face to get to 70/30", I think you may be missing the critical point, which is that jaw motion forwards/backwards can also make the embouchure function 70/30. It's not like moving a circle up and down over a straight line you drew on a piece of paper.

If the mouthpiece is sliding into a different spot when you play, that doesn't sound like it's being placed in an anatomically correct spot for you. I have heard of teachers (who have no business discussing embouchure) changing a young student's mouthpiece placement up/down because of what is written in the arban book. Again, that is a flat picture with a circle drawn over it. The change usually doesn't end well. How can you play if the mouthpiece doesn't feel right?

All this to say, what Doug is saying about free buzzing and bringing the lower lip in sounds right! That sounds like a jaw movement, forward/backwards, and a movement of the lip over the teeth. That doesn't sound like an up down movement of the metal physically on your face like you're visualizing.

I hear you. I have no doubt the pivot system works, but I can’t connect the dots. I can actually free buzz a bit now but in order to do it my lip position is so exaggerated that I can’t imagine how it could work on the horn. It’s a pretty complex system, even simplified. Maybe I’ll get it, maybe I won’t, only time and work will tell.

One of the more brilliant illustrations of what pivoting is was when Doug used a ping pong ball to mimic the vertical and horizontal curve of the teeth; like a ball and socket joints. I got it intellectually, but my face seems to be rejecting it.

Wilktone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:36 pm

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:55 am I know you didn’t say the part about about feeling over sound. It was quoted on Dave Wilkin’s page concerning R’s sensation theory. “...it is important to cover Reinhardt's Sensation Theory. This approach to playing a brass instrument has the player relying primarily by feel rather than on sound.”

Doug and I were just talking about that article last night. In retrospect, I made the exact same error that Reinhardt did in my attempt to make his pedagogy more accessible. By being too complete, I (and Reinhardt) inadvertently made it more complicated than it should be.

Getting the correct feel is very important, but the feel needs to be correct in the first place. When it's not correct, what feels "right" might start working against you. I'm about to post a new topic here that you might find interesting.

Dave

Yeah, I’m sure there’s a lot of “having faith” in the system. Based on my training, which was all quite standard and mostly from Remington protégés, the pivot system seems pretty radical. I remember John Coffey saying to his students, “just tongue and blow, kid.” Talk about over simplifying!

I’m looking forward to your new topic Dave.

Mike

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:23 pm
One of the more brilliant illustrations of what pivoting is was when Doug used a ping pong ball to mimic the vertical and horizontal curve of the teeth; like a ball and socket joints. I got it intellectually, but my face seems to be rejecting it.

This illustration was what made things click for me in a recent session with Doug.

My face/brain was also rejecting the pivots Doug recommended until I pulled out a copy of Bach's Cello Suite BWV 1007 'Prelude' and played this slow motion to practice the technique. Inside three weeks I've noticed big difference in my flexibility and the relative ease with which I can now pivot to more reliably hit notes in the upper register.

Not advocating that this would work for everyone, but it's really helped build a pivoting 'habit' in my case. Still requires lots of focus and I regularly forget as passages get faster, but time and practice will hopefully make this second nature.

Slightly moving my MP up on the face has also helped, but that's another story