I recently acquired this euphonium 4th valve “F section”. I’m kinda playing with the idea of flipping the valve and mounting it on a donor straight trombone. It would be actuated by the first finger. What would you do with it?
F14886D9-124F-4640-ABDE-E5A3616EEDB7.jpeg
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:18 pm
by Burgerbob
Probably way too large in bore for anything without a huge step up and down.
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:38 pm
by mrdeacon
Yeah... depending on what you got that off of the bore might be massive or an odd size. I'd probably take measurements first before you did anything...
That doesn't look like a compensating valve...? Is that from a noncomp horn like those noncomp side 4th valve Besson or Yamaha 641 Euphs?
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:30 am
by Amconk
It’s off some old Chinese horn. Not sure what or who. Valve works and has good compression. Bore size through the tubing is .547 ID. Here it is mocked up on a bell section. I ran out of solder so I can’t actually put it together until morning. It looks weird at first but it’s actually super comfortable/ergonomic to hold. It’s fun to tinker.
325A8CC3-4A0B-4E95-8B08-7630F37E9BB6.jpeg
DC13AE26-C54D-4B34-ACCE-B86DDA6C051D.jpeg
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:37 am
by Elow
That’s pretty cool, i would try and have it convertible to a minor second for some cello music. Not sure how but i saw a video of a dude taking the clamp part of a lyre and cutting it off and using that to tighten and loosen tubing. Might have to add a counterweight for that though.
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:55 am
by BGuttman
Elow, you probably saw the recent YouTube by Trent Hamilton showing a 100 year old horn with a trill valve. Trill valves were used on "solo" instruments back then. I don't think you can reconfigure that section to be a trill valve, though.
There was a Bach trombone available with a piston valve F-Attachment. II had a brochure for one when I was a kid.
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:46 am
by elmsandr
Man,
I've been looking for a decent .562 and .593 donor piston sections for years to do this. Of course, I'm not willing to spend any money on it so that gets in the way of this project for me.
Looks like this will be fun!
Andy
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:31 am
by timothy42b
This will be an interesting experiment and might answer some old questions about bore size through tubing.
If you put that .547 attachment on a .547 horn, it might play well into the upper range where most people don't use valves. If so you'd be better off with G or some other choice than F.
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:40 am
by Amconk
The horn it’s going on is an old Yamaha .525 bore that had a damaged rotor knuckle, and no lacquer left. The knuckles on the piston valve fit perfectly into the slide receiver and gooseneck sockets. I need to dig around and find a better ferrule for the gooseneck socket before I solder it up.
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:49 am
by Burgerbob
Perfect!
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:24 am
by Elow
BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:55 am
Elow, you probably saw the recent YouTube by Trent Hamilton showing a 100 year old horn with a trill valve. Trill valves were used on "solo" instruments back then. I don't think you can reconfigure that section to be a trill valve, though.
There was a Bach trombone available with a piston valve F-Attachment. II had a brochure for one when I was a kid.
I did not... just found his youtube channel. Thank you so much! This dude is cool. I mainly said that because i had to learn bach cello suites for a test and it had a lot of trills that were half steps, or at least my teacher wanted them to be half steps
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:01 pm
by Amconk
I can’t tell if this is getting out of hand or awesome...
Lol. Sometimes I should probably stop and wonder if I should, rather than if I could.
Now to design a linkage for the rotor...
327BF9C0-D74F-4651-807C-7B9183E4B8B4.jpeg
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:40 pm
by Elow
That’s pretty cool
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:05 pm
by Finetales
Amconk wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:01 pm
I can’t tell if this is getting out of hand or awesome...
If you ever have to ask this question, the answer is always "keep going".
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:25 pm
by Amconk
Progress! I successfully cut the second trigger down to Gb so now it uses standard bass tuning. Did a bit of cleanup on some of the solder joints. Tomorrow I’m going to fab a linkage for the rotor. Got some spare brass bar stock and I’m gonna play around.
It’s a bit awkward to hold at first but after you adjust it feels pretty natural.
04088967-15E6-469E-9F25-5D1DF7ABB183.jpeg
CB6331FA-EFB0-46DF-AC83-1850B04231EB.jpeg
08C932DD-FF0A-4175-8998-3F05B2909626.jpeg
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:15 am
by JohnL
Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:05 pmIf you ever have to ask this question, the answer is always "keep going".
I think you mean "D*mn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!"
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:33 am
by elmsandr
Haven't screwed it up yet, might as well keep going!.
Looks like a fun project, I hate the making levers stage.
Andy
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:11 am
by Crazy4Tbone86
That's the beauty of using a piston valve section like that for an attachment......no levers! Of course, you might need to be very creative with your bracing, but the levers are not an issue.
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:31 pm
by BGuttman
Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:11 am
That's the beauty of using a piston valve section like that for an attachment......no levers! Of course, you might need to be very creative with your bracing, but the levers are not an issue.
I think he's referring to the old rotor (which I thought was bad and you needed to replace).
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:11 am
That's the beauty of using a piston valve section like that for an attachment......no levers! Of course, you might need to be very creative with your bracing, but the levers are not an issue.
I think he's referring to the old rotor (which I thought was bad and you needed to replace).
I did! I had another Yamaha rotor already. So I went ahead and did the rotorectomy while I had it off and then put the section back on.
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:51 pm
by Amconk
6ED7376E-B771-4ECE-96CD-8F1F69EA7FED.jpeg
Presenting, the double trigger tenor with piston valve F. I... don’t think it’s going to catch on but it was fun as heck to build. I learned a ton about the geometry of rotor linkages. You should see my reject pile... ignore the sloppy solder on the thumb ring. My clamp slipped. Gonna have to clean that up...
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:00 pm
by Amconk
Quick vid of the valve action
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:52 pm
by Finetales
How does it feel in the hand when playing?
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:45 pm
by Amconk
I’m not gonna lie: it’s awkward. The hand position feels fine. Ergonomically it all works. But having your hand up higher on the bell section than normal feels weird. The balance seems off. If I was to play it all the time, I would probably get used to it, but this project was mainly for repair and build practice.
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:14 am
by Elow
A play test would be cool...
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:40 am
by Amconk
Elow wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:14 am
A play test would be cool...
I’ll try to get one tomorrow
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
This computer doesn't get youtube, I'll watch later.
But your photo gave me carpal tunnel just looking at it. thanks much!
Re: Okay customizers, what would you do with this?
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:08 pm
by Amconk
Here’s a short vid of playing using the valves. Forgive the sound, all I could find in a small shank mouthpiece was a CL, and the rim is so sharp on those!! Never did care for it.