TromboneChat

I have been thinking about buying a Meinl sackbut and after visiting their website I am still not sure which of their models to go for. Can anyone give me the benefit of their own experience particularly relating to the three different bore sizes offered. Thanks!

That depends on what ensembles you are playing with.
If you, like me, are playing with lots of different groups of different size the midlle size may be the best, I have middle size and large tenors. You can allways get by in small ensembles with a large bore, but in larger groups the small bore may work against you.
If you are playing with lots of different groups you may need tuningslide for 430, in rare cases also 415.

Schnitzer if you can afford it, if not, definitely the small bore if I were you.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 15, 2017, 10:30PMyou may need tuningslide for 430, in rare cases also 415.

You might have this backwards maybe? We typically play late Baroque (still a sackbut land) like Bach at a415, but repertoire we typically play at a430 are generally too late for sackbuts (Classical music like Mozart, Haydn, even Beethoven, Mendelssohn...). For sackbut, a415 (and probably just as much a466 but that won't involve any crooks or pipes) is much more frequently used than a430.

 The present day 'low pitch', a'=415 Hz., has little or no historical justification, having been chosen mainly because it is almost exactly one semitone below a'=440 Hz.

I do own a crook for 415, it havent been used for at least 30 years. In 1967 we did play lots of music in 415. There is not much historical evidence for trombone music in that pitch.

In germany in the 16th to 17th centuary the pitch was around 465 more or less, there was no real standard. from 17th centuary the pitch was arond 435 440.

The tuning fork that is aid to be used by Handel is 422,5 in pitch. We play Handel in 430 or 440.

If we are playing in a ensemble that is tuning to 415 we do that too. If you are playing in lots of differnt ensembles be prepared to adjust to the group.

The differnce between classical and older trombones is not very big, in Sweden we play the same kind of horns also for Mozart and Haydn. It is a big step to Beethoven and Mendelssohn, but it does happen that some of that music is played on sackbut to. In Sweden there seems to be most important that the sound from the trombone blends to the group.

It all depends on the ensemble you are going to play with.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 19, 2017, 03:10AM The present day 'low pitch', a'=415 Hz., has little or no historical justification, having been chosen mainly because it is almost exactly one semitone below a'=440 Hz.

No. A415 does have its reason. When the court of the "Sun King" Louis XIV organized its orchestra, they used that pitch, which many of the other European courts imitated (while churches still stuck with their own local pitches based on their organs for a while still). In fact, it was probably the first somewhat "universal" pitch the Europe had seen by that point. (Note that French court was not the first one to adopt that pitch, though--a prominent example that predates it include the Silbermann organ at Dresden's Roman Catholic Church, etc.)

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 19, 2017, 03:10AMmany in the 16th to 17th centuary the pitch was around 465 more or less, there was no real standard. from 17th centuary the pitch was arond 435 440.

Not really. The pitch depended upon the pitch of the available organs in each city, so it could have been anywhere from town to town. The most common Renaissance and early Baroque pitch we use is A466 (including that of pre-Leipzig Bach!) probably because the organ at San Marco in Venice was pitched there. But this was by no means standard back then. The organ in Lübeck (Buxtehude, etc. used) was as high as almost A490, for example. We do use A440 for Viennese (Habsburg) music usually, because we know their pitch was lower.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 19, 2017, 03:10AMThe tuning fork that is aid to be used by Handel is 422,5 in pitch. We play Handel in 430 or 440.

Yes and no. I believe his tuning fork is actually a C512 (which would put A at around 422.5). It was given to him by the inventor of tuning fork, John Shore. C512 tuning fork was made and used to assess people's hearing (medical device!). And (while I don't know the legitimacy of this) that tuning fork is commonly associated with the dates 1840 or 1851. When trombone in Handel is concerned, we usually are talking about Saul and Israel in Egypt, both written in 1839. Personally I had played both several times professionally and it's always been either A415 or A440, but maybe in Europe its different...

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 19, 2017, 03:10AMThe differnce between classical and older trombones is not very big, in Sweden we play the same kind of horns also for Mozart and Haydn. It is a big step to Beethoven and Mendelssohn, but it does happen that some of that music is played on sackbut to. In Sweden there seems to be most important that the sound from the trombone blends to the group.

This is about the same in the US, although now that we have more "informed" sackbuts available, we tend not to mix them with Mozart/Haydn. Older reproduction sackbuts were just so darn big (actually perfect for Mozart...).

Ok so two things here.

First, to the OP, I would recommend the Drewelwecz (small bore) instrument. Most of the Meinl players I know have that one. The Schnitzer is also very good (actually, better IMO), but has a rather distinctive tone that doesn't blend quite as easily with other non-Schnitzer instrument. I would also recommend trying an Egger Hainlein (not the large bore nor the Slokar versions), they're fantastic instruments. A bit larger than the Drewelwecz, but a tighter bell throat, which makes it play brighter.

The choice is really between those two, Drewelwecz and Schnitzer (plus the Egger). The "large bore" Hainlein by both Meinl and Egger are based on an instrument that is strongly suspected to be a cut-down bass (it has a similar bore and bell taper as another extant Hainlein bass). They have intonation issues and will very easily sound too big, and will only work well on low parts that should be played on bass anyway. The Meinl "medium" bore is not based on a historical instrument AFAIK, I believe it's just a compromise instrument between the specs of the Hainlein and of the Drewelwecz.




Secondly, about classical trombones and what instruments to use for Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, etc, since the topic came up... Neither of the two major makers currently offer an instrument that is suitable for that repertoire. They both base their "classical" instrument after third-grade German-style instruments from Schmiedt, a part-time maker from Pfaffendorf, in modern-day Poland, whose instruments were mostly found in churches. It's very unlikely such an instrument would have made its way into Vienna. A 1630's Hainlein trombone, is in fact much closer to the Viennese classical instrument in terms of shape, taper and bore profile. The Viennese trombone would simply be larger (both the bore and bell) with pretty much the same proportions.  The Schmiedt instruments are just of a completely different shape, with a much narrower bell throat and a much more flared bell. It doesn't really matter that they are contemporary to Beethoven, that alone should not make them de facto more appropriate than earlier instruments.

It's like arguing that playing Berlioz on a 1840s large bore and large bell German trombone would be more authentic than playing it on a 20th century British peashooter. Everyone would agree that neither is truly authentic, but the British peashooter is much closer in design to a 1830s French trombone than the 1840s German trombone is. It's pretty much the same thing with classical trombones. A sackbut is of course not the right horn for Mozart or Beethoven, but it's certainly closer to be the right horn than the typical "classical" trombone currently on the market.


To be fair, there are at least two makers, Patrick Fraize and Michael Munkwitz, who make a copy of Viennese baroque and classical tenor trombones - but unfortunately, I don't know anyone who plays one (or had even just tried one).

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Aug 19, 2017, 09:56AMTo be fair, there are at least two makers, Patrick Fraize and Michael Munkwitz, who make a copy of Viennese baroque and classical tenor trombones - but unfortunately, I don't know anyone who plays one (or had even just tried one).

here are the two links

http://www.fraize-marques.com/en/instruments-anciens.php
http://trompetenmacher.de/de/historical/sackbuts/

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Aug 19, 2017, 09:56AM
First, to the OP, I would recommend the Drewelwecz (small bore) instrument. Most of the Meinl players I know have that one. The Schnitzer is also very good (actually, better IMO), but has a rather distinctive tone that doesn't blend quite as easily with other non-Schnitzer instrument.

The Meinl "medium" bore is not based on a historical instrument AFAIK, I believe it's just a compromise instrument between the specs of the Hainlein and of the Drewelwecz.


I agree 100%. I really like the schnitzer but it's just different. I bought the middle bore model but i talked myself into it and I liked the drewelwecz better. One of these days I'm going to upgrade.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Aug 19, 2017, 09:56AM
First, to the OP, I would recommend the Drewelwecz (small bore) instrument. Most of the Meinl players I know have that one. The Schnitzer is also very good (actually, better IMO), but has a rather distinctive tone that doesn't blend quite as easily with other non-Schnitzer instrument.

The Meinl "medium" bore is not based on a historical instrument AFAIK, I believe it's just a compromise instrument between the specs of the Hainlein and of the Drewelwecz.


I agree 100%. I really like the schnitzer but it's just different. I bought the middle bore model but i talked myself into it and I liked the drewelwecz better. One of these days I'm going to upgrade.