Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:32 am
by fistulator
Hey all, I'm a handicapped trombonist thinking about trying a trigger trombone, and would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
First of all, how do I mean handicapped? I have a partial right arm amputation. I use an Ergobone to hold most of the weight of my trombone, my left arm to move the slide and my stump to keep my mouthpiece positioned correctly (heres an image)
I think I would need some alternate mechanism for activating the trigger. Have any of you ever seen it done? I was thinking about a pedal or a trigger on the slide that has a cable attached to it (something like a remote hihat pedal)
Also, whenever I've tried playing trigger trombones (I've only tried with rotary valves) the valve linkages came in the way of positioning my face like I'm used to on my trombone. This is probably due to the fact that they were made to be played with the right hand moving the slide. Is there a way to switch the side of the linkages?
Any suggestions?
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:14 am
by Bonearzt
Hi, Just a thought, but IF possible, it would almost make more sense to try to hold normally in your left hand and adapt something to your right arm to move the slide.
That aside, with some major rebuilding, the valve could be reversed and set up as a mirror image with the linkage on the outside away from your face.
Eric
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
I have also heard of people playing euphonium/baritone with small pistons and servos that responded to wrist motion. Anything is possible with a good design and enough money!
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:35 am
by BGuttman
I met someone who had an amputation on the right side between the elbow and wrist. He wore a hook shaped prosthetic. He was able to use that to move the trombone slide (and did it quite well).
I wish you luck finding a solution to your problem.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:23 pm
by heinzgries
since a crash with a motorbike i am paraplegic. My hands and arms work not perfect and i can not use my fingers. I hold my trombone with right and move the slide with left, like you. On one off my altos is a normal valve which i move directly with back of my right hand. Perhaps you can move such a version of valve trigger with the stump of your right arm.
(see pics below)
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:33 pm
by Geordie
Mark Bassey, a UK Pro- trombonist, has similar issues. Might be worth checking out his website?
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:01 pm
by brassmedic
I think I remember seeing pictures of trombones with the valve located in the handslide, but I don't think you could do it in the moving part of the slide unless you located the valve in the end crook. The obvious disadvantage to that would be an extremely bottom-heavy slide. And if you had a trigger on the moving part of the slide and the valve on a non-moving part of the trombone, then you would need a constantly changing length of string to activate it, so I don't think that would work either. What about something as simple as pulling a string with your foot? This has supposedly been done to facilitate the Bartok gliss, by pulling the F-slide with the foot simultaneously with moving the hand slide. Should be even easier to turn the valve with your foot since it's only about 3/4" throw.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:17 am
by fistulator
Bonearzt wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:14 am
Hi, Just a thought, but IF possible, it would almost make more sense to try to hold normally in your left hand and adapt something to your right arm to move the slide.
That aside, with some major rebuilding, the valve could be reversed and set up as a mirror image with the linkage on the outside away from your face.
Eric
I don't have any real elbow movement, so I'd have to move the slide using my shoulder, which would greatly limit the range of positions I could reach. How complex is reversing a rotary valve?
I have also heard of people playing euphonium/baritone with small pistons and servos that responded to wrist motion. Anything is possible with a good design and enough money!
This is great. As you say, with enough money and patience, I'll be sure to figure something out.
heinzgries wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:23 pm
since a crash with a motorbike i am paraplegic. My hands and arms work not perfect and i can not use my fingers. I hold my trombone with right and move the slide with left, like you. On one off my altos is a normal valve which i move directly with back of my right hand. Perhaps you can move such a version of valve trigger with the stump of your right arm.
(see pics below)
Thank you for these images and story. Where did you modify your trombone?
brassmedic wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:01 pm
I think I remember seeing pictures of trombones with the valve located in the handslide, but I don't think you could do it in the moving part of the slide unless you located the valve in the end crook. The obvious disadvantage to that would be an extremely bottom-heavy slide. And if you had a trigger on the moving part of the slide and the valve on a non-moving part of the trombone, then you would need a constantly changing length of string to activate it, so I don't think that would work either. What about something as simple as pulling a string with your foot? This has supposedly been done to facilitate the Bartok gliss, by pulling the F-slide with the foot simultaneously with moving the hand slide. Should be even easier to turn the valve with your foot since it's only about 3/4" throw.
I think that pulling a lever with my foot will be the way to go. Seems like the simplest (and probably best) solution.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:40 am
by whitbey
Maybe a cordless foot peddle connected to an servo or solenoid. Model airplane and piano parts might be useful.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:36 am
by heinzgries
fistulator wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:17 am
Thank you for these images and story. Where did you modify your trombone?
Helmut Voigt build me these trombone. I have personal contact to him.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:01 pm
by greenbean
How about a cord/chain/cable that runs from the valve down to a loop that fits around the toe of your shoe? You would have to keep the cord taut while playing - probably sitting. You would have to move your foot to actuate the valve but not so much that it moves the horn and disturb your embouchure.
Are you in NYC? I would think working with a local tech would be easiest.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:32 pm
by mrdeacon
So I have a question for the OP. Why do you want a trigger? Is it for range or for complicated passages? Or something else?
Probably something like the Schagerl superbone would work out best ergonomically. Of course, a tech could figure out a way to make the valves actuated with your left hand.
With a superbone you can park the slide when you need the extended range and use the hand slide when you want to be a trombone again. Doing something like the superbone will give you the most technical and musical abilities. A janky foot-actuated valve system is just not going to be as articulate as something actuated by your hand and is going to be much more limited in what you can do with it.
Like brad suggested... maybe there is a way to get a valve in the slide? but it's going to be a set of compromises no matter what you do. I think a superbone is your best bet to limiting those compromises and your best chance at having the best playing instrument possible.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:03 pm
by Amconk
What if you mounted a rotor in the end crook of the outer slide, and ran the tubing up the center of the slide with a couple braces? Then ran a linkage up the outer slide to a trigger mounted on the hand brace? It wouldn’t really matter if the attachment was in the bell or the slide, it would still do the same function of expanding the length of the horn.
Something like this:
(Pardon my poor drawing skills...)
20A98DE2-A1A3-4CF0-9A8F-06AF871D33F4.jpeg
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:26 pm
by Doug Elliott
Try tying that much weight to the end of your slide and I think you'll find out it's not a good idea.
The regular position F attachment probably helps with balance.
I would try to figure out an alternate method of supporting the horn, maybe a vertical shaft between the inside elbow and the bell, and possibly rig a valve action with a twist of the supporting arm. All of that may depend on how much elbow is there and can move at all.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:42 am
by Bonearzt
Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:26 pm
Try tying that much weight to the end of your slide and I think you'll find out it's not a good idea.
The regular position F attachment probably helps with balance.
I would try to figure out an alternate method of supporting the horn, maybe a vertical shaft between the inside elbow and the bell, and possibly rig a valve action with a twist of the supporting arm. All of that may depend on how much elbow is there and can move at all.
Agreed!! THAT much weight added to the slide would probably render it inoperable and probably warp the inners fairly quickly!!
As mentioned, try to get with a local tech to discuss options.
Eric
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:23 pm
by Amconk
What’s the weight of a typical F-attachment? I’m curious to try it now and see how it affects the slide function.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:25 pm
by Bonearzt
Amconk wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:23 pm
What’s the weight of a typical F-attachment? I’m curious to try it now and see how it affects the slide function.
A 42B valve section is approximately 1lb 6.5oz without the trigger mechanism.
Eric
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Amconk wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:23 pm
What’s the weight of a typical F-attachment? I’m curious to try it now and see how it affects the slide function.
A 42B valve section is approximately 1lb 6.5oz without the trigger mechanism.
Eric
That’s crazy! I never would have guessed they were that heavy! Time to call butler and have them whip up some carbon fiber!!!
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:02 pm
by fistulator
Thank you everybody for your replies!
greenbean wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:01 pm
How about a cord/chain/cable that runs from the valve down to a loop that fits around the toe of your shoe? You would have to keep the cord taut while playing - probably sitting. You would have to move your foot to actuate the valve but not so much that it moves the horn and disturb your embouchure.
Are you in NYC? I would think working with a local tech would be easiest.
A cord to the foot sounds good. I live in Serbia, so, if I decide to make a modification like this, I'll probably have to look for a tech in a different country, as there are close to none here, and they mostly do repairs.
mrdeacon wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:32 pm
So I have a question for the OP. Why do you want a trigger? Is it for range or for complicated passages? Or something else?
Probably something like the Schagerl superbone would work out best ergonomically. Of course, a tech could figure out a way to make the valves actuated with your left hand.
With a superbone you can park the slide when you need the extended range and use the hand slide when you want to be a trombone again. Doing something like the superbone will give you the most technical and musical abilities. A janky foot-actuated valve system is just not going to be as articulate as something actuated by your hand and is going to be much more limited in what you can do with it.
Like brad suggested... maybe there is a way to get a valve in the slide? but it's going to be a set of compromises no matter what you do. I think a superbone is your best bet to limiting those compromises and your best chance at having the best playing instrument possible.
I'd like a trigger because I think it would help my playing. I have the impression that I can't go for 1st position to 6th without moving my trombone too much, enough that it disturbs my embrochure. Of course, this could just be due to a lack of practice in this area. Also, I like how the deep end of a trombone sounds
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:09 pm
by walldaja
How about using a solenoid or motor driven valve to actuate the valve directly via electrical impulse? It could be keyed with a button conveniently located, either on the horn by your hands or via foot switch.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:37 pm
by andym
FYI, Mark Bassey's wikipedia page describes how his horn is set up but I think his situation may be sufficiently different that it may not apply: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bassey
I think I would tend toward trying an electronically activated valve. It may be easier than modifying the tubing and might give you a valve that is faster than traditional approaches. Some race bicycles now use electronic shifting.
Good luck.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:26 pm
by Oslide
I don't know what could be done to get the valve linkage out of your way, but if it can be done, a possible method of actuating it could be through a bowden cable like those used on a bike for changing gears or braking. This could be operated via a pedal, as suggested before.
However, if you arrange this pedal so that the valve is actuated when you press the pedal flat down (horizontal), you will most of the time stand with this foot on its heel, toes in the air, while the other one is always flat on the ground. This may quickly become uncomfortable (just try it for one minute and you will see what I mean).
Perhaps you would require a pedal arrangement where your pedal foot is in the same position (horizontal) as the other one when you don't press the pedal, and tilted forward when you press the pedal. This might require a low pedestal for both feet. Just thinking.
Good luck
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:19 pm
by Doug Elliott
Bluetooth to a solenoid.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:50 pm
by Crazy4Tbone86
I am surprised that nobody has brought this up....
When I first saw this, I couldn't determine if this was genius or ridiculousness. Considering the question asked by the original post, it is looking more and more like a genius idea to me!
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:47 am
by fistulator
Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:50 pm
I am surprised that nobody has brought this up....
When I first saw this, I couldn't determine if this was genius or ridiculousness. Considering the question asked by the original post, it is looking more and more like a genius idea to me!
Oh man, this is more or less what I imagined!
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:30 pm
by Crazy4Tbone86
I believe the guy who posted that drum pedal video was a Cornell engineering student a few years ago. Maybe you can figure out how to contact him by snooping around his YouTube channel.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:47 pm
by fistulator
Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:30 pm
I believe the guy who posted that drum pedal video was a Cornell engineering student a few years ago. Maybe you can figure out how to contact him by snooping around his YouTube channel.
Already found him
Thanks for this video!
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:16 am
by Crazy4Tbone86
Again, his foot pedal idea is looking more and more like a genius idea! Give us an update if you end up doing something with a foot pedal.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:45 am
by fistulator
Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:16 am
Again, his foot pedal idea is looking more and more like a genius idea! Give us an update if you end up doing something with a foot pedal.
This will probably take a while. First I need to find an F-attachment trombone in a good state, then I need to find someone to flip the valve mechanism, and only then do I get to fiddle with a pedal.
But I really look forward to trying this. Thank you everybody, you've had some great suggestions! I'll post when I manage to get something working.
Re: Adapting a trigger trombone for handicapped players
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:28 am
by LeoInFL
The footpedal idea is pretty awesome and it seems to work well. Good luck with that pursuit!
I had another idea while reading down through all of the replies: an air-actuated trigger. An air pressure piston operates the trigger. It wouldn't need to be too complicated and it wouldn't add much weight to the bell section. I was thinking a small air bladder under your left armpit held by a cross-body sling, like a scaled-down one from a bagpipe instrument. I'm not sure how much something like this would hinder your ability to freely move the slide with your left arm though.
Best of luck and post some prototypes along the way.
