TromboneChat

Hi guys!

Has anyone here added an additional counterweight to their horn? I'm finding my newest horn to be on the nose-heavy side and my left hand is feeling the strain across the palm, thumb, and especially the middle finger, after anything more than 45-60 minutes. Possibly I'm just used to lighter equipment - my previous horn was a 2B. I tried it with a rubber plunger balanced behind me and it was instantly better, so we're not talking a lot of weight required.

Rather than the hassle of replacing the handslide with something lightweight, I was wondering about adding a second counterweight behind me, ideally on the brace below the tuning slide (it's a BAC, so the brace on the tuning slide is the curly counterweight - not much room to mod).

Hickey's have a generic counterweight for a decent price - just looking for some input before I plunge in and try it!

I came across this video on YouTube of a trombonist performing as a guest / featured artist with another band. You can see he has two counterweights on his horn. I think he might be like one of those New Orleans guys on a straight bass trombone, so he might be doing it to balance out where there would normally be valves. Although I guess his situation isn't exactly the same as yours if he's playing a straight bass and you're on a peashooter, but nonetheless it's an example of someone using two counterweights.

You might also be interested in some sort of hand support, like the NeoTech. I use one on my small bore and it works great.

What's the new horn?

I find that another counterweight can work, but usually it just makes the horn heavy and not fun.

I've used a second counterweight on my newer 8H to give it more resistance and focus (and it worked), but i also play bassbone so i wasn't bothered by the added weight.

That's all i have to say about that.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:17 pm What's the new horn?

I find that another counterweight can work, but usually it just makes the horn heavy and not fun.

It’s the BAC Paseo W6. I‘m more concerned about balance than overall weight, but I was also worried if it would mess up any resonances or anything like that...I figured there was probably a reason it isn’t normally done.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:36 pm I've used a second counterweight on my newer 8H to give it more resistance and focus (and it worked), but i also play bassbone so i wasn't bothered by the added weight.

That's all i have to say about that.

Thanks Thrawn! So you used it intentionally for changing the sound, and it had a noticeable effect? Did you place it on the brace below the tuning slide?

Also, thank you for not BAC-bashing, I know that isn’t easy for ya.

Have you tried reaching out to Mike at BAC? He might have an idea for you.

It will 100% change the way the horn plays. Could be for the better though

Thanks Thrawn! So you used it intentionally for changing the sound, and it had a noticeable effect? Did you place it on the brace below the tuning slide?

Also, thank you for not BAC-bashing, I know that isn’t easy for ya.
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Yes. To go further into it. I had this paticular 8H made convertible so i could use a CL valve section with the bell. When i would go to the straight neck pipe the sound didn't seem as focused as it was with the valve section. So i put an extra weight on it and it helped it sound like if the valve were on it.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:57 pm It will 100% change the way the horn plays. Could be for the better though

When I play a horn that has a 2nd counterweight on it, besides looking silly, it usually blows like there is a second counterweight on it. That's usually not a good thing.

Oddly enough every now and then it does improve a horn. The 8h Thrawn has does play pretty well with the second counterweight. But... if I added a second counterweight to my straight 42 it would totally kill the resonance of the horn.

I agree, except that the BAC doesn't have a counterweight. It'd be a first counterweight. That pigtail nonsense is not a counterweight, hence the unbalanced horn.

At the risk of derailing, I'll say that BAC often prioritizes form over function.

Apologies if this is an obvious suggestion, but...

Perhaps you could replace the existing counterweight with a heavier one, rather than having two counterweights?

And if you want to know what effect adding or taking away stuff will have on your trombone, try it.

One of the guys that plays tenor in one of my bands has an extra weight on his 3B. He's a decent player and intelligent so I think you can say there is something in it (for him at least) he has identical weights on both the cross braces. The fact that he has the second weight on the lower brace suggests to me its probably as much about sound as balnce. Personal preference and what suits you but I am sure it will alter the way the horn plays either for better or worse. None of which helps if there isnt somewhere to attach the weight on a BAC horn. How about the Minick trick of filling the tubing with lead, though that would have to go back to Mike or another tech to achieve and probably relacquer. AuntieAmanda has probably just posted the most obvious answer except there isnt a counter balance to start with and nowhere to attach one (easily) ... Doug

Thanks all! I’ve emailed BAC to see if they have any suggestions, and if that falls short then I’ll try the generic weight from Hickey’s on the brace below the tuning slide.

I did think about replacing/filling the original loop weight but I’d rather not go to that level of modding or replacing the tuning slide.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:59 am I agree, except that the BAC doesn't have a counterweight. It'd be a first counterweight. That pigtail nonsense is not a counterweight, hence the unbalanced horn.

I always wondered if the loop weighed less than a normal weight... I confess I really like the aesthetics of it though!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:59 am I agree, except that the BAC doesn't have a counterweight. It'd be a first counterweight. That pigtail nonsense is not a counterweight, hence the unbalanced horn.

At the risk of derailing, I'll say that BAC often prioritizes form over function.

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:52 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:57 pm It will 100% change the way the horn plays. Could be for the better though

When I play a horn that has a 2nd counterweight on it, besides looking silly, it usually blows like there is a second counterweight on it. That's usually not a good thing.

Oddly enough every now and then it does improve a horn. The 8h Thrawn has does play pretty well with the second counterweight. But... if I added a second counterweight to my straight 42 it would totally kill the resonance of the horn.

Funny enough, i took the second weight off recently since i have two other 8Hs (a 58' and 68') and i want to play those more (theres a long story about my newer 8H). The other two i felt didn't need the second weight because i have an older Conn weight (marching men) on the 58' and those weights are heavier than the new weights, and the 68' bell feels a bit heavier than a normal Elkhart bell.


Maybe when you talk with bac Magnum you should suggest a modular weight system or a heavier pigtail.

There was a thread on Trombone Forum about "playing w/out a counterweight on a 6H?"
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... ght#p13681
that gives some opinions (27 posts) as to the effects of more or less weight.

Ray Conniff had two counterweights on his King (3B?) for some time - for whatever reason.

The Elliott Mason model from BAC has a tweakable counterweight. Kind of like the Edwards Harmonic Brace, but even more like the way Rath's works. That one actually is a counterweight, and the prototype of that horn, at least, could REALLY play. But in this case, like the Edwards version, it's not all or nothing, and the options do more than just change the weight of the horn.

It may be that you cannot put the weight where you want it. Because the place may be off the horn. Take a look at archers and their weights on rods. The whole point is balance. It may be you're thinking about a weight for balance reasons, but you may need a rod to get to the right location.

baileyman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:28 pm It may be that you cannot put the weight where you want it. Because the place may be off the horn. Take a look at archers and their weights on rods. The whole point is balance. It may be you're thinking about a weight for balance reasons, but you may need a rod to get to the right location.

For that matter, you may want to look at the contraption Heinz Gries put on his trombone. It's his avatar.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:43 pmFor that matter, you may want to look at the contraption Heinz Gries put on his trombone. It's his avatar.

here is a better pic of these

Nice job! Now, if you give the rod a right angle to put the weight behind your head it will also counter balance the bell rotation. People with big basses complain about that rotation force on their wrists. I wonder wonder which feels better, a heavy unbalanced bass or an even heavier balanced bass?

heinzgries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:02 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:43 pmFor that matter, you may want to look at the contraption Heinz Gries put on his trombone. It's his avatar.

here is a better pic of these

Is that a second connection point on the bell flare? If so, why?

--Andy in OKC

heinzgries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:02 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:43 pmFor that matter, you may want to look at the contraption Heinz Gries put on his trombone. It's his avatar.

here is a better pic of these

Looks wonderful! Sadly I don't have anything like that kind of technical skill...

I am going to throw out this maybe stupid idea. Could you try some tape on wheel balancing weights to temporarily see if the added weight will work? You could also get differing weights so you might know how heavy you would need and maybe where to place the counterbalance. Should be able to get some at a tire store.

Just a thought....

PSJ wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:27 am I am going to throw out this maybe stupid idea. Could you try some tape on wheel balancing weights to temporarily see if the added weight will work? You could also get differing weights so you might know how heavy you would need and maybe where to place the counterbalance. Should be able to get some at a tire store.

Just a thought....

I do the same thing with a D battery. It's about the same weight as a normal counterweight.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:58 pm

PSJ wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:27 am I am going to throw out this maybe stupid idea. Could you try some tape on wheel balancing weights to temporarily see if the added weight will work? You could also get differing weights so you might know how heavy you would need and maybe where to place the counterbalance. Should be able to get some at a tire store.

Just a thought....

I do the same thing with a D battery. It's about the same weight as a normal counterweight.

I thought about that. Don't want to tarnish the horn, but if I use electric tape and don't leave it too long that should be grand, I'd think. Good ideas!

afugate wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:38 am
Is that a second connection point on the bell flare? If so, why?

--Andy in OKC

its from the first try, but it was the wrong place to fix the counterweight.
I forgot to remove it before i made the picture.

heinzgries wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:56 pm

afugate wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:38 am
Is that a second connection point on the bell flare? If so, why?

--Andy in OKC

its from the first try, but it was the wrong place to fix the counterweight.
I forgot to remove it before i made the picture.

Thx. By the way, I really like the idea of being able to control the balance in two directions.

-Andy in OKC

I play a Weril TIS Alto trombone and it`s really front heavy . I added an old King counter weight and BINGO all problems went away.