TromboneChat

Hey everyone,

Just wondering which Lindberg Mouthpiece is the biggest? Is it the 2CL or the 4CL? Depending on where I look the measurements are unclear. Looking for someone with some in person experience with the lindberg line to shed a little light.

Thanks.

2CL is bigger. Many tenor players use the 4CL, if you can live with the rim shape (not all can).

Lindberg's mouthpieces have similar cup inside diameters, but have progressively deeper cups and larger throats / backbores as the numbers decrease. For large-shank, the 5CL is the smallest (think sort of 5G), then the 4CL (with quite a large throat), and the largest 2CL with a wind-tunnel-sized throat. Their rims are rather narrow and rounded – fine for me but considered by others too "sharp."

According to the Conn Selmer 2011 catalog the CL5 actually has the largest cup diameter of 25.83mm. The CL4 is 25.60. The bass trombone mpc is the CL2 with a cup of 25.55. Trying to find measurements is not easy. I use the CL5 on my tenor and the CL2 on my bass. I can't remember where I read the throat but believe it is .312. Definitely a big hole. I love them but use a Bach 1.5 when I go below F.

walldaja wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 7:22 pm According to the Conn Selmer 2011 catalog the CL5 actually has the largest cup diameter of 25.83mm. The CL4 is 25.60. The bass trombone mpc is the CL2 with a cup of 25.55. Trying to find measurements is not easy. I use the CL5 on my tenor and the CL2 on my bass. I can't remember where I read the throat but believe it is .312. Definitely a big hole. I love them but use a Bach 1.5 when I go below F.

Yeah, this is the problem I have, so the numbers relate to cup depth? Not Rim diameter?

walldaja wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 7:22 pm According to the Conn Selmer 2011 catalog the CL5 actually has the largest cup diameter of 25.83mm. The CL4 is 25.60. The bass trombone mpc is the CL2 with a cup of 25.55. Trying to find measurements is not easy. I use the CL5 on my tenor and the CL2 on my bass. I can't remember where I read the throat but believe it is .312. Definitely a big hole. I love them but use a Bach 1.5 when I go below F.

Those numbers (while published in many places) are definitely not correct. I think the Hickeys website has more accurate ones.

Yeah those numbers are wrong. DE has more useful numbers on his website.

Shame you can't get realistic measurements from the people who made them. All I can verify is the throat of my CL4 is significantly bigger than my CL5. Despite their lack of verifiable measurements I do like them and they work for me.

There is one Japanese Conn brochure with the sizes of CL mouthpieces that look different and more logical: https://www.nonaka.com/catalog/pdf/conn_trb_c.pdf

I think the equivalents are off. I have a 4CL and it's much closer to a 4G.

Also, according to the brochure the 15CL and the 5CL are supposedly the same size. They are NOT. Nor are 13CL and 4CL.

You can look at all the Lindberg pieces on the Vennture software now (minus 4CL). The rims are all nearly the same, and the difference in diameter comes from the inner bite. The high point on them all is basically the same. The 15CL has a very strange inner bite compared to the other ones.

All of the pieces are longer than standard, and the large bore pieces are significantly longer than a standard piece.

4CL and 2CL have the exact same throat width, but the 2CL has the throat entrance bored out.

4CL is basically a bored out 6.5AL cup. The 5CL is a 6.5AL.

All pieces go into the leadpipe farther than standard, which helps them play more open than their shallow cups would suggest. The 10CL goes in the farthest, making it actually a terrible choice for small tenor but great for loud alto playing. I would tape the shank if using on tenor.

The 10 and 13CLs have throat entrances that have been ridiculously bored out, though the throat diameter is modest on them.

The rim shape and ID is not ideal on any of them, and the 15CL bite is downright painful. The 13CL rim profile is probably best. Every piece has a pretty high entrance angle, typical of shallow mouthpieces.

They're all good designs, if a bit extreme.

Pasha wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 7:50 am There is one Japanese Conn brochure with the sizes of CL mouthpieces that look different and more logical:

Whoever prepared this brochure has never looked at or played a Lindberg mouthpiece.
The "equivalents" (or are they "comparisons"? I don't read Japanese) are ludicrous.

The Lindberg mouthpiece line is definitely not typical, in many ways. I remember reading about how it took 10 years of development and testing to make the mouthpieces, and how you're supposed to be able to swap between different pieces in the line based on instrument and repertoire.

This is what I found regarding the size and/or sound, but it seems like CL felt very strongly that outer rim diameter, rim shape, and rim width were almost more important than the inner diameter.

2CL Large 25.55mm Big, dark, open sound
4CL Large 25.60mm Slightly brighter than the 2CL, with substance and richness
5CL Large 25.83mm Bright, clear and distinct sound; easy top register and improves endurance
10CL Small 25.15mm Full and clear sound
13CL Small 25.90mm Clear distinct sound on tenor trombone and full open sound on alto trombone
15CL Small 25.75mm Distinct and clear sound with body and richness on alto trombone

I have a 13CL as a sort of "back-up" alto mpc. and the rim does feel pretty much in the Bach 4 (25.9/26) range that I usually play on. I think the numbers are (more or less) correct in the previous message from tbonesullivan. Not sure how to compare the cups, etc. The Lindberg mouthpieces have a rim shape that is an "acquired taste" and I haven't met many players other than Christian who make them a first choice. He sounds great on them, though.

JS

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 10:38 am You can look at all the Lindberg pieces on the Vennture software now (minus 4CL).

4CL is basically a bored out 6.5AL cup. The 5CL is a 6.5AL.

The 10CL goes in the farthest, making it actually a terrible choice for small tenor but great for loud alto playing. I would tape the shank if using on tenor.

The 10 and 13CLs have throat entrances that have been ridiculously bored out, though the throat diameter is modest on them.

Hmm. I'm sure the Vennture laser scans are more accurate than my primitive measurements, and I find it hard to accurately determine Cup diameters or Cup shape, but I can measure Throat diameters fairly readily:
• 5CL = 6.76mm / 0.266"
• 4CL = 7.70mm / 0.303"
• 10CL = 6.20mm / 0.244"
• 13CL = 5.85mm / 0.230"

The 5CL Cup feels bigger to me than a typical 6½AL (there is some variation in Bach pieces!), and the 4CL much bigger.

Don't have my 10CL handy now, but I don't recall it dropping too far into the receiver on my small-bore tenor. Perhaps that's instrument- or leadpipe-dependent?

I'll pull them all up on Venn Cad and do some screenshots later

Well now I'm not sure i want a 15cl.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 6:39 pm Well now I'm not sure i want a 15cl.

It's really good in terms of cup through backbore, the sound, resistance, etc, but the rim is ....

The 13CL rim is much more comfortable, but still the narrow rounded profile. The 13CL is also a very good alto piece.

Anyone know the rational about the missing numbers? (1, 3, 6-9, and 11-12) Were they rejected prototypes or were numbers selected by some other process.

Thanks

I think they’re supposed to be the “feel” of the piece

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 1:26 pm I think they’re supposed to be the “feel” of the piece ...

... with apparent reference to the [goofy] Bach mouthpiece numbering system.

walldaja wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 12:26 pm Anyone know the rational about the missing numbers? (1, 3, 6-9, and 11-12) Were they rejected prototypes or were numbers selected by some other process.

Thanks

The 1CL exists, and has a sharper rim and tighter throat than the 5CL. It's smaller overall. It came in two blank types. I had one for a while and it was uncomfortable to play on.

The original 10CL is the small shank version of it for alto. I am not 100% sure but I believe that the original 10CL was different from the current 10CL.

It used to just be the 1CL and 10CL. And they were not on the market.
The numbering is there because you need something to differentiate the different pieces. They have no equivalency to the Bach numbers in size or feel.

The 5CL is very similar to certain iterations of the large shank Bach 6.5AL.

The 4CL is a 6.5AL bored out to 7.8mm, with a relatively tight backbore.

The 2CL is a deeper V cup bored out to 7.8mm with a more open backbore and wide entrance to the throat. It is not like any other mouthpiece I've come across.

All three large shank pieces are longer than a regular Bach piece, and have a narrower shank end diameter, although the shank taper is ... weird. It's not a normal 1:20 taper rate like most modern pieces are using.

The small bore pieces are unique, I don't think they are like any other small shank pieces out there. Certainly not like a Bach 15 or whatever.

Thanks for the information Harrison!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 10:38 am 4CL is basically a bored out 6.5AL cup. The 5CL is a 6.5AL.

I know I'm a bit late but would you mind telling me what you mean by a a bored out 6.5AL cup? I'm kinda new to these terms so it's a bit hard to follow lol

Bored out means someone took a drill and widened the backbore of the shank.

oopyirdy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 6:12 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 10:38 am 4CL is basically a bored out 6.5AL cup. The 5CL is a 6.5AL.

I know I'm a bit late but would you mind telling me what you mean by a a bored out 6.5AL cup? I'm kinda new to these terms so it's a bit hard to follow lol

Sure, the throat is about .307" inches on the 4CL, vs .261" on the 6.5AL or .276" on the 6.5A large shank mouthpieces. It's significantly larger, and one of the widest throats of any production tenor trombone mouthpiece.

However, the 4CL backbore profile taper is narrower than the large shank 6.5 pieces, in my experience. The backbore is the part that expands all the way to the end of the shank after the throat. The throat is the point (or section, if the throat diameter stays the same for any length) where the inner mouthpiece diameter is most narrow. Some mouthpieces have a long throat, like a cylinder.

I picked up a 5CL to try when I was in college… I found it too bright for anything symphonic, so I used it for marching band—it projected well, and I was marching with a Conn.

calcbone wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:52 am I picked up a 5CL to try when I was in college… I found it too bright for anything symphonic, so I used it for marching band—it projected well, and I was marching with a Conn.

Not sure I agree about the 5CL. Yes, it's brighter than a 4CL, but I would find it just fine for principal trombone in an orchestra. (Think 6½AL - 5GS size range). I guess I like to play brightly when called for. Works nicely with my 88HCL. You could also use the larger-throat 4CL (if you're a strong player) on 1st, but I'd use the 4CL on 2nd. The even-larger throat 2CL could be used, as suggested by Conn (or is it Lindberg?) for orchestral 2nd trombone, but I've never encountered anyone who does.

I used to use a 2CL for 1st trombone, and occasionally euphonium.
Now, due to an allergy & injury, I just use stainless or plastic. Giddings or Wedge!

I used to use a 5CL when I owned a 42B, and was happy with the sound I got out of it. The 10CL piques my interest, anyone know what "mainstream" size it translates most to? I couldn't find much on the web about it.

Not very much. It’s .99” rim and the internals on these (other than the one that is weirdly identical to a. 6.5AL other than the huge throat as pointed out by Harrison), the shape and throat of these is pretty unique.

That said, rim size wise, Bach 6 3/4C.

FWIW, here is a comparison video:



Sorry, it didn't capture my cursor. Oh well.

Use 2CL routinely with large community group (100+). Love them.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 12:30 pm FWIW, here is a comparison video:



Sorry, it didn't capture my cursor. Oh well.

Lot of great info here. Question though: previously you've mentioned "I believe that the original 10CL was different from the current 10CL." In this video, are you looking at the original 10CL then?

diminishedSeventh wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:49 pm
Lot of great info here. Question though: previously you've mentioned "I believe that the original 10CL was different from the current 10CL." In this video, are you looking at the original 10CL then?

No, it's the current 10CL (the one you can hear on the Mozart horn concertos album). The original 10CL was probably close to the current 15CL, just like the 1CL was very similar to the current 5CL.

I've never seen an "original" 10CL.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 12:30 pm FWIW, here is a comparison video:

Wow thank you for this!