Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:14 pm

As an improving learner with one years experience behind me I've been asking around for an answer to this question.
Can I reasonably expect to get bottom C on the second ledger line on a single plug bass bone? Will be confronted with this note in a forthcoming contest test piece
Merv

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:15 pm

Yes

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:16 pm

Yes, if you pull the F attachment to E and play it in a flat sixth position.

ttf_norbie2009 · Post by **ttf_norbie2009** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:19 pm

Can't you play it in a flat 7th?

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:23 pm

When I play my single plug I tune my low F to right against the bumpers (normally I don't do this on tenor or my Shires) so I can get the low C in b7th in tune with my short arms. You just gotta really stretch!

Like burgerbob said you can a also use your E pull and get it in 6th but unless if you need to play a low B somewhere it's not exactly necessary.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:49 pm

An excellent question, Merv.

Not all bass trombones are created equal. To retain the F tubing, AND to play the low C with the valve in F, you require a longer handslide to get it in tune. The Conn 72H was built like this-- longer slide, shorter bell section.

To test your low C play it up an octave ( C in the staff) and use a tuner to check the C there, and then compare it to C in 6th position. Most tuners crap out in their response in the lower register. You can check the staff C in 6th or trigger b7 to prove that on 99% of horns there is no low C. Not unless YOU PULL THE TRIGGER TO E, bE, or Eb.

By the same method you can prove that there is no low B, below the staff, on a single valve Bach bass trombone. No matter how much tubing you pull and how much slide you use it'll always be sharp.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:55 pm

I can't play a B on any single I've found. I can get close! But no cigar. And that means the C on the end of the slide of most horns is also sharp.

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:08 pm

For the singles I have played, the C is more realistic than B. I can get a C on my Bach 50B with the slide practically falling off and some lipping. But the B in unattainable. I assume this is because the positions are slightly longer when you put the horn in E or bE or whatever...

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:15 pm

Back in the day, many bass trombonists went their entire careers with single valve basses and played many low Cs. Some of those players switched to doubles when they became commonly available. But some didn't...

Ray Premru was one of the ones who didn't. I think at some times he owned a Boosey and Hawkes double to use when he really needed it, but he always preferred his Holton 169 (and hated the plug-in valve for it so much that he never, ever used it). His strategy for the low C was to lip it down if it wasn't exposed and he didn't have to play it very loud, and to pull his F slide a couple of inches to play it in a straight ahead 7th position if it was loud or exposed. He made himself familiar with a 2nd set of valve positions for this. He did this often in my lessons to demonstrate some Bach cello suite movements or excerpts like Heldenleben.

I practice this on my Bach 50B. I play off the bumpers for my B-flats, so I have room to come in for valve notes. If I tune my F valve so that I can get a C in the staff all the way against the bumpers by lipping up just a tinch, I lose the 1st position low F, but I've got a good low C in 7th. That puts B in the staff in straight 2nd, E below it in short 2nd, Eb right about 3rd, D just slightly past 4th, and Db in short 6th.

To be clear, I don't tune my valve this way all the time, but I practice so that I can switch easily between the two tunings, which is what Ray did. I mark the valve slide with a Sharpie so that I can pull it quickly to exactly the right place and put it back just as quickly.

Ray played low Bs by pulling the slide to E and lipping down. I don't have that option with my valve wrap, so I practice the false tone at home and always bring my Shires to gigs where I will have to play one.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:24 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Yesterday at 05:55 PMI can't play a B on any single I've found. I can get close! But no cigar. And that means the C on the end of the slide of most horns is also sharp.

Right. There is no good low B on any single. If we could pull to a good Eb it would work. Why don´t they bould the singlel with a longer attachement pull? With the long straght tubing on many modern trombones it is remarkeble that pull is so short. Can anybody explain why it is so?

For a good low C the needed pull is just a few centimeters, but you can just as well pull to E.

of course you can allways lip down, but that is not an option for the O.P. neither is the false tones.

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:33 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Today at 02:24 AMThere is no good low B on any single.

Depends on the instrument. I've played a number of works on the Conn 70H, which require low C or B (including Le bourgeois gentilhomme). As it has a short bell section and a long main slide, there is ample scope for playing an in-tune low C and, if need be, for the pull to E to reach low B. George Roberts managed OK with this trombone and nobody questioned his ability to reach low C.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:17 am

Thanks for that post Gabe, now i understand why Ray used the long positions a lot. He put the tuning a little low so the C is more comfortable. I will try that a little but I loose the F in first then.

Everything is possible but I must tell I have not reached the level to make the C and B comfortable like some really high class players do. So when something difficult stuff appears down there I take my Holton with two valves. When I put the tuning slide all the way out on my 70h, I get the B. But its a little sharp. But some others do this easier than me so I have to still practice it more. I think George said he lip them down?

Anyway, to the OP, the C is no problem if you tune the F slide just a little out. Then you get a nice open C on long seventh position. It feels more open because its going through only one valve.

Leif

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:24 am

Not to poke at Leif or anyone else in articular on this Forum, but I keep seeing this and therefore if there was only one person in the whole world - George Robertson - who could ever get a great low C on a single-valve bass trombone, that tells me something!

Say it isn't so.

...Geezer

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:45 am

It isn't so.

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:54 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Today at 04:45 AMIt isn't so.

I do get what Geezer is say though. Generally, people use GR as an example a fair amount. I do agree that coming up with a couple others would ads more weight to one's position.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:01 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Today at 04:45 AMIt isn't so.

Right, there is many thousands who is able to do this. There is even lot of tenor players who is able to do this. The teacher I had in conservatoria had no problem with this and she was a principal in a big orchestra. Svenne here can play low c and b without any trigger I think. The clue is maybe to have a strong buzz?

Anyway, everyone can play a low C. The B might need a little work. At least for me.

Leif

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:42 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Today at 04:24 AMNot to poke at Leif or anyone else in articular on this Forum, but I keep seeing this and therefore if there was only one person in the whole world - George Robertson - who could ever get a great low C on a single-valve bass trombone, that tells me something!

Say it isn't so.

...Geezer

As Leif said, anybody can play a low C. Goerge Roberts was not at all the only one who used false tones (in this case low C trigger 2 low B trigger 3) try to find the book "Practise with the experts) When i Music College I hade two teachers who teached false tones, Palmer Traulsen taught false tones I meet many bass trombonist who played low C and B as false tones including some of my students.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:44 am

Thanks guys. I think I have a pretty nice low C but this morning I had the thought that maybe I only think I do! Lol I started to wonder if there was something magical about it I was missing.

...Geezer

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:59 am

If you need a second example, take a listen to two of Lindberg's old recordings:

1. "Hosanna!" On the album "The Sacred Trombone"

2. "Arpeggione Sonata" on the album "Criminal Trombone"

In the first recording he blows the low C out of the water in the slow passage towards the end of the piece.

In the second recording he plays the low C in the middle of a a very fast passage (which happens a few times because there is a repeat).

He has many other examples where he plays this note. On an 88H. With the F attachment tuned so that F is on the bumpers. Tenor trombonists play it all the time with one valve. The B natural is the note that is dubious.

I'm pretty surprised, by this thread. Of course it's easier to play with two valves, but what is up with the doubts being introduced here???

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:07 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Today at 05:44 AMThanks guys. I think I have a pretty nice low C but this morning I had the thought that maybe I only think I do! Lol I started to wonder if there was something magical about it I was missing.

...Geezer

No magic. The false tones have a long story from the end of 16th centuary. The low C on tenor sackbut was played on the same position as low E. (Check Praetorius syntagma musikum)(low E on 6th as the tenor was in A not Bb)

Today many trombone players practise false tone like low C on pos. 6 or trigger 1. That might be a fun practising if you think that sounds ok, (I tried that in the 50th, it is easy to remember the positions as it is the same as the octave up, you can get a pretty good fake sound, but it sounds "fake sound" not really like a trombone sound) but is in no way useful i performing music.

I did own a 70H, short bell, long slide, the low B was possible with the longest pull and slide you could get. Pluss a little lipping. If no lipping a sharp low B. But it was useful.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:20 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Aug 01, 2017, 05:59AM
I'm pretty surprised, by this thread. Of course it's easier to play with two valves, but what is up with the doubts being introduced here???

Today the fake tone false ton undeprividged tones what ever is more or less a forgotten art thanks to the double trigger. Many players do not know about "falsett stimme". The should at least hear about them in the music history lesson. (Praetorius)

Many composers and arrangers did write "trigger tones" with plunger because they hade heard it done. Today manny trombonists thinks that the writer did not know what she/he was doing. Wrong.

QuoteThe B natural is the note that is dubious. Right. But he was a fantstic player. And a fantastic guy. Mow he is more of a coposer and conductor.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:31 am

False tone C and B are your friends on a single. False B because it's your only choice on anything except a 70H, and false C just because it's handy.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:09 am

Note that Merv is a Brass Bander and that low C may have to be played "blastissimo" in competition. If the band requires that low C to be LOUD, maybe they should invest in a double plug horn for you.

But a good compromise for most modern basses is to pull the F tuning slide a couple of inches (maybe 5 cm) and play at the end of the slide. Older basses had longer F tuning slides with a real E-pull and often longer handslides as well.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:20 am

False tones though? With a single trigger it's not a false tone. You play it in 7th the same as any other note that needs the F attachment.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:34 am

Low C can be played "blastissimo" on a singel, and have been played blastissimo many times in brassband, orchestras and bigbands.
You can do it on several ways, people have been doing that for ages. Look around man.

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:33 pm

Where did this idea that the low C can't be played on a single trigger horn come from?

It's trigger 7th. If you can't do it, work on it until you can. It's a real note. Lube your slide properly and get it down there.

I can play it FFF on a 3BF with a 5G. Evan as a false tone I can play it on a 2B just about as loud.

Teachers have been making their students play the Bach cello suites on large bores with F since forever. 1st suite in G wouldn't be playable if this weren't possible. Work on it.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:05 pm

This is why. With the F slide tuned to F on any normal length slide instrument, the C on the end of the slide is sharp to the tune of 30 cents. Check it up an octave.

Pull to E or flat F (I prefer E) to play it.

And I prefer a false tone C with the F valve to a "real" tone that's 30 cents sharp.

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:00 pm

The advice that Gabe gave was really good. Kind of fun to know that I taught myself how to tune a single plug the same way Ray Premru did

You really don't even need to tune your F attachment to a true bF you just need to drop the pitch 10-15 cents to get that low C within lipping position out in b7th. The F in 1st is still usable in fast passages this way but it's still just flat enough that for held out low F's you'll need to use 6th.

I'll kick it out more to true bF when I really need to crank the low C's but don't want to throw my tuning slide all the way out to E or use some bE tuning slide extenders I have.

ttf_Terraplane8Bob · Post by **ttf_Terraplane8Bob** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:23 pm

First ---- Who the Hell is George RobertSON ?
To go on ---- With all the concern about playing low "C" sharp on the "F" valve and low "B" sharp on the "E" valve ---- hasn't anyone out there ever played music using 1/4 steps instead of the conventional 1/2 step intervals ? Just take any note of your choice and then "lip" it either up or down 1/4 of a step. You'll know when you have it right when the lack of consonance is excruciating ! It was thankfully short-lived, but some nut-case will revive it eventually.
Lewis Van Haney told me that in order to play the "Bartok B", he had a couple of eyelets soldered to his horn --- one on the inner crook of the "F" slide and one on the bell brace through which he strung a long piece of fishline that terminated in a large loop through which he inserted his foot. He pulled the valve slide to "E", played the low "B" in flat 7th position and simultaneously brought the slide to 1st position as his foot moved in the opposite direction and pulled the "F" slide all of the way home. He not only saved hundreds of dollars by not having to purchase a double trigger horn [Yes --- bass trombones sold for HUNDREDS of dollars at the time], but he got the job done ! [Brilliantly, I might add !] He did mention that he'd polished the "F" slide so that it would move with little resistance.
When in the NSO, I recall playing the Bartok Concerto For Orchestra with Antal Dorati as our music director. He drew me aside on one occasion and asked if it was difficult to perform the famous "Bartok Glissando" on bass trombone. Knowing him not only as a conductor, but as a composer as well, I showed him how simple it was to accomplish on a double trigger horn [my King Duo Gravis]. He was very appreciative to have a better understanding of the technique, but I caught Hell from other players for not making it appear as some sort of "black magic" that required all sorts of trickery to accomplish. What a screwy business this can be sometimes ! Cheers !! Bob

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:39 pm

Actually, the Bartok gliss works best on a dependent double in flat E.

More modern setups aren't quite as nice because the low E is further in reducing the amount of slide for the gliss.

I had heard about the Van Haney fishline "trick" and thought it was ingenious.

Meanwhile, Merv, throw that slide out as far as you can and go for the C.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:49 pm

Quote from: Burgerbob on Aug 01, 2017, 01:05PMThis is why. With the F slide tuned to F on any normal length slide instrument, the C on the end of the slide is sharp to the tune of 30 cents. Check it up an octave.

This almost seems like that one where the bass trombonists were all saying their F attachments were flat no matter how pushed in they were.

Why is my C in tune out there?

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:18 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Aug 01, 2017, 08:49PMWhy is my C in tune out there?
It is for me too. Just a tad past 7th on my Shires or my Blessing when the F section is split between C and F. The Tiger plastico's slide is too short to do it though.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:06 am

Ha ha

let´s all agree with the fact the low B and C have been played very loud on singels for ages!
How to do it and how we tune the attachment is more or less personal. I do it my way and have meet lots of players do it other ways.

If it works it is allright.

Who the Hell is George RobertSON ? Yes that is funny? Sorry

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:47 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 02, 2017, 03:06AMHa ha

let´s all agree with the fact the low B and C have been played very loud on singels for ages!
How to do it and how we tune the attachment is more or less personal. I do it my way and have meet lots of players do it other ways.

If it works it is allright.

Who the Hell is George RobertSON ? Yes that is funny? Sorry

Yes indeed. What else is there to say ?

Chris Stearn

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:45 am

Quote from: Terraplane8Bob on Aug 01, 2017, 05:23PMFirst ---- Who the Hell is George RobertSON ?
...

I guess it's the son of George Roberts. Does he play trombone?

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:19 pm

Who the heck is George Robertson?

I think he came after Arthur Prior?

Anyhoo, I think we talking two low C's; a nothing-less-than perfect symphonic low C vs a good-enough-for-local-band low C! I can get the latter without pulling anything!

...Geezer

ttf_Doghouse Dan · Post by **ttf_Doghouse Dan** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:25 am

Geezer, I'd like to think that every note should be perfect regardless of the level of the group one is playing with.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:46 am

Quote from: Doghouse Dan on Aug 03, 2017, 08:25AMGeezer, I'd like to think that every note should be perfect regardless of the level of the group one is playing with.

So would I - like to think it!!!!!!!

But you are right. THAT should always be the goal! However, since music - by it's very nature - is a compromise on pitch, we are oftentimes forced to make compromises as performers. A section-mate and I discussed this a little bit while we should have been paying attention to the conductor!

We concluded that we would rather have a low C in as-far-as-we-can-reach 7th position that is a bit sharp and lip it down, than to re-tune our horns and lose F in first.

So I guess we all need to make a judgement call; a low C in 7th slightly challenging in-tune wise, or lose F in first; both ways vs sporting a double-bass. I don't view lugging around a double-bass as the "easy" way out! No one pays me to do that. And no one likely ever will.

But if they are paying YOU, or you aspire to be paid, then you do what you gotta do...

...Geezer

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:51 am

Quote from: Doghouse Dan on Aug 03, 2017, 08:25AMGeezer, I'd like to think that every note should be perfect regardless of the level of the group one is playing with.

Says the guy who plays a Conn 72H and has plenty of slide to get down to flat 7

I'll tell you one bass trombone it's nearly impossible to get a low C on -- a G bass with no trigger!

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:32 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 03, 2017, 08:46AM
So I guess we all need to make a judgement call; a low C in 7th slightly challenging in-tune wise, or lose F in first.

...Geezer

You can have both, man. Where are all these crazy ideas coming from? The same people who felt like their F attachments were flat no matter how much they were pushed in on the F slide, even though their main tuning slide was pulled out over an inch?

The key is to have a long slide, and a short bell section. Not every horn is designed this way. Take the 88H for example. It's absolutely designed this way, and you get a full 7 positions even though Bb is in tune 1 - 1.5" off the bumpers. It's got a long slide / short bell design, and the springs it used to come with are signposts telling you that it is supposed to be this way. The guys who pull the tuning slide to get Bb in tune at the bumpers get bonus length on the hand slide that they don't need, but they'll have to lose it in the F slide to tune it so that F is in tune, so it comes out even. All that matters is that the handslide is longer than some other trombones.

Now the F attachment let's you really lengthen the bell section independent of the slide. So tune it such that the F is in tune all the way at the bumpers. The extra inch or more on the long slide let's you have the C in tune below the staff out on the stockings.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:49 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Aug 03, 2017, 10:32AMYou can have both, man. Where are all these crazy ideas coming from? The same people who felt like their F attachments were flat no matter how much they were pushed in on the F slide, even though their main tuning slide was pulled out over an inch?

The key is to have a long slide, and a short bell section. Not every horn is designed this way. Take the 88H for example. It's absolutely designed this way, and you get a full 7 positions even though Bb is in tune 1 - 1.5" off the bumpers. It's got a long slide / short bell design, and the springs it used to come with are signposts telling you that it is supposed to be this way.

Now the F attachment let's you really lengthen the bell section independent of the slide. So tune it such that the F is in tune all the way at the bumpers. The extra inch or more on the long slide let's you have the C in tune below the staff out on the stockings.

Well, that's exactly what I have done on my 88H - playing F in T1 all the way closed - and thought I could get a pretty much in-tune low C; maybe a cent-and-a-half sharp if I can't reach out to the very end. I'll take slightly sharp if I can't have 100%. Then I read all the posts on this thread and started to think I was whacked. Okay, maybe I am anyway. lol

...Geezer

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:56 am

Yeah. A cent and a half or even 14c is well within tolerance of what your chops will try to lip up or down anyways without you even thinking.

This thread just has me scratching my head. Such a simple question, "can I play a low C on an F attachment?" And the response should just be "yup", but instead there are some responses that are completely baffling.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:34 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Aug 03, 2017, 10:56AMYeah. A cent and a half or even 14c is well within tolerance of what your chops will try to lip up or down anyways without you even thinking.

This thread just has me scratching my head. Such a simple question, "can I play a low C on an F attachment?" And the response should just be "yup", but instead there are some responses that are completely baffling.

All threads that are long enough get responses that are completely baffling.
Yup isn´enough though.
Even with a short bell / long slide you need a long right arm, many players do not have long enough arms.

Many horn don´t have a long slide.

I think we shall avoid talking about cents to much, that would just make more baffling responses.
Just tried on my Bach 46B that has a slide that as long as I can reach.
It is so easy to lip down in the end of the slide so it is kind of hard to tell if you are liping or not.
I can play an in tune low C without E pull, I can play with E pull, I can play a false tone all in tune.
If I really make sure I do not lip down at all the low C is about 25-30 cent sharp.

With a weak embouchure and short slide you can still play low C, there are several ways to do it.

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:39 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Aug 01, 2017, 01:05PMThis is why. With the F slide tuned to F on any normal length slide instrument, the C on the end of the slide is sharp to the tune of 30 cents. Check it up an octave.

Pull to E or flat F (I prefer E) to play it.

And I prefer a false tone C with the F valve to a "real" tone that's 30 cents sharp.

This is a problem with the Edwards 427.

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:43 am

There is a simple explanation for the availability of low C on a B flat/F trombone.

When Sattler integrated the rotary valve attachment in 1839, it was (and still is) based on an acoustic compromise. The B flat trombone slide is not long enough with the F valve engaged to provide an in-tune low C because the air column has not been lengthened sufficiently by the addition of the valve attachment tubing. The air column would need to be several centimetres longer to achieve the low C without changing the fundamental pitch of the attachment.

Consequently it becomes necessary to lower the overall pitch of the attachment tubing by extending the tuning slide adequately to allow the low C to sound properly. As a direct result, the low F series is no longer available, as the air column is now too long to permit the shorter B flat trombone slide to access these notes.

Generally speaking, every B flat trombone with F attachment must have the attachment tuning adjusted in order to reach the low C. You can either tune to low F in first position and lose the low C or tune to allow the low C to sound correctly and lose the first position series, which has to be performed in sixth position. This is the tuning compromise that was used by many professionals on single valve instruments until the double valve models were more widely adopted.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:46 am

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Today at 12:43 AMThere is a simple explanation for the availability of low C on a B flat/F trombone.

When Sattler integrated the rotary valve attachment in 1839, it was (and still is) based on an acoustic compromise. The B flat trombone slide is not long enough with the F valve engaged to provide an in-tune low C because the air column has not been lengthened sufficiently by the addition of the valve attachment tubing. The air column would need to be several centimetres longer to achieve the low C without changing the fundamental pitch of the attachment.

Consequently it becomes necessary to lower the overall pitch of the attachment tubing by extending the tuning slide adequately to allow the low C to sound properly. As a direct result, the low F series is no longer available, as the air column is now too long to permit the shorter B flat trombone slide to access these notes.

Generally speaking, every B flat trombone with F attachment must have the attachment tuning adjusted in order to reach the low C. You can either tune to low F in first position and lose the low C or tune to allow the low C to sound correctly and lose the first position series, which has to be performed in sixth position. This is the tuning compromise that was used by many professionals on single valve instruments until the double valve models were more widely adopted.

Many traditional German trombones have longer slides and shorter bell sections that allow for a low C if the player has long enough arms.
The Conn models 72H,73H,71H and later 70H all have longer slides that allow a low C without adjustment as does the Reynolds contempora.
But you know this Ed.
Just puttin' it out there.
Chris Stearn

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:25 am

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Today at 12:43 AM

Consequently it becomes necessary to lower the overall pitch of the attachment tubing by extending the tuning slide adequately to allow the low C to sound properly. As a direct result, the low F series is no longer available, as the air column is now too long to permit the shorter B flat trombone slide to access these notes.

Generally speaking, every B flat trombone with F attachment must have the attachment tuning adjusted in order to reach the low C. You can either tune to low F in first position and lose the low C or tune to allow the low C to sound correctly and lose the first position series, which has to be performed in sixth position. This is the tuning compromise that was used by many professionals on single valve instruments until the double valve models were more widely adopted.

Thank you!

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:47 am

So in other words "generally speaking", what you guys are all agreeing about isn't always the case, at least for players who tune "sharp" and play long on the slide. Chris Stearn is right. Short bell, long slide allows for it, especially when the player already tends to play long. My tuning slides are all pushed in 100% or even cut (short bell). I also play long on the slide as it is, which is just good practice "generally speaking". Thus, when I tune my F to be in tune in 1st, the F attachment is pulled way out, AND I now have use of 100% of the slide.

These "laws" you guys were taught might be true on a Bach 42, or might be true for the way people now traditionally play (sharp, forcing the bell section to become even longer relative to the slide), but aren't always true.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:57 am

Most basstrombone slides are not long enough.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:22 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Aug 05, 2017, 08:47AMSo in other words "generally speaking", what you guys are all agreeing about isn't always the case, at least for players who tune "sharp" and play long on the slide. Chris Stearn is right. Short bell, long slide allows for it, especially when the player already tends to play long. My tuning slides are all pushed in 100% or even cut (short bell). I also play long on the slide as it is, which is just good practice "generally speaking". Thus, when I tune my F to be in tune in 1st, the F attachment is pulled way out, AND I now have use of 100% of the slide.

These "laws" you guys were taught might be true on a Bach 42, or might be true for the way people now traditionally play (sharp, forcing the bell section to become even longer relative to the slide), but aren't always true.

So if you cut your tenor bell and have a long slide... Sure. Not on most basses in most situations. Which is what this thread is about. I don't know many tenor players that play like that.

I had to play a lot of low Cs on my 42B recently. I just pulled to E.