TromboneChat

Being a doubler (my main instrument is ) I was lately experimenting with the teachings of Cat Anderson and some other trumpet high specialists, which led me to start experimenting on the tbone as well...so the question for today is:

JAW PLACEMENT/SETUP:

Do you put forward the lower jaw in order to align the teeth of both jaw or do you use the more classical/conventional setup with lower jaw being slightly behind the upper one and why?

Well, I am a basstrombone player, but I can play high tones, and I have had more tudents that I can count. So.
Many players do move the jaw forward until the teeth are aligned, many players do not consciously move the jaw, some players pull the jaw back.
Good high range players do it in different ways.
Some play with an over bite, some play with an underbite.

My self, I play with my teeth almost aligned, why ? Because I can´t play another way because my teeth.

There are methods mostly for trumpets where you are suposed to  push your jaw forward.
I have played with some trumpeters with a fantastic high range doing that.
Not many trombonists though. Many good players are pointing their horns down.

Classical/conventional? Well most common.

I have an overbite so I put the jaw a bit forward in all registers. So the teeth are aligned. I wonder if that is ok? I can't play so very high though.

I read somewhere that Cat Anderson warmed up with long notes on a single note G on his trumpet for about 15-20 minutes. After that he was ready to play any high note.

Also I have noticed many lead trumpeter play with the horn angle nearly pointing up. Don't know why but some do?

Leif

Same for me as with Lief and Sven- I've got a strong overbite, but for as long as I can remember I've been inclined to jut my bottom jaw out to align my teeth.
Idk if I'd say I'm a "high note specialist", though I can't that I've got some good control on the high range (high G to D over high Bb. Eb and E life in such awkward and different places on each of my horns and require a different "access" technique as far as tongue level and airflow goes, but the F is there on-call.)

I have an overbite as well, and I corrected it by pushing my jaw forward about 10 years ago. It was the answer to a couple of issues that I'd had prior to making the change, being the lack of a focused tone, and a slowly fading upper register which would occur over a period of a few days during a busy playing spell.

I've always had a good initial upper register, and this may be the reason why my teachers didn't see any reason to correct my setup, therefor not acting in my long term interests. The outcome of the change, which was quite painful at first, was improved focus and better endurance without the gradual fade problem. My chops are also back to normal after a nights sleep as well.

I still don't have a parallel to the ground playing angle, but it's higher than before, and truth to tell, I don't care for the "in your face" high bell tone anyway.

However I wouldn't advise that the OP, makes any changes without getting some good advice from someone who plays in the manner that he aspires to. I did it out of frustration, in a "%*&$" or bust" moment, and got lucky...

I have an overbite, but I stopped moving my jaw forward to align my teeth, because that was causing jaw pain. I leave my jaw where it naturally falls, and the trombone is angled slightly downwards now.

Once I did that, I switched to a larger rim diameter, and my high range did not increase, but it became much more stable and reliable, still up to F5. I think that pushing the jaw outwards probably overcompensates, and might force the opposite embouchure type (upstream vs downstream) than what is ideal.

For reference, the rim diameter was somewhere around 25.5-26mm for my old mouthpiece, and the shift in my jaw (or lack thereof) likes a rim that is about 27mm

Quote from: savio on Yesterday at 03:04 AM
I read somewhere that Cat Anderson warmed up with long notes on a single note G on his trumpet for about 15-20 minutes. After that he was ready to play any high note.

Leif,

This is very wrong. This wasn't warming up, but calinestenics (or whatever is called in English). He called that whisper G - he played the note as soft as he could with closed aligned jaws, breathing in through the nose in order to keep the embouchure setup steady and not releasing the tension of the lips (building strength and setting up the "right" position of the whole embouchure setup. He did this at home, often while watching TV or other multitasking stuff.

Think of it like Carmine Caruso type of embouchure workout.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Yesterday at 06:34 AM
I have an overbite, but I stopped moving my jaw forward to align my teeth, because that was causing jaw pain. I leave my jaw where it naturally falls, and the trombone is angled slightly downwards now.


I persisted with the pain which went away after a few weeks. I have found though, that my relaxed jaw stays in it's new position. Strange..

I found that all great players have a light overbite or underbite. But I do not know of any great player with a massive overbite. (IMHO)

Quote from: bonenick on Jul 28, 2017, 11:17PMBeing a doubler (my main instrument is ) I was lately experimenting with the teachings of Cat Anderson and some other trumpet high specialists, which led me to start experimenting on the tbone as well...so the question for today is:

JAW PLACEMENT/SETUP:

Do you put forward the lower jaw in order to align the teeth of both jaw or do you use the more classical/conventional setup with lower jaw being slightly behind the upper one and why?

From the Reinhardt perspective, what I've read of the Pivot System and talked/learned from Doug Elliott (and he can correct me if I'm wrong), the jaw placement is dependent on the embouchure type that fits your anatomy.

Quote from: Trombocholik on Yesterday at 11:12 PMI found that all great players have a light overbite or underbite. But I do not know of any great player with a massive overbite. (IMHO)
Dennis Wick. And a thousand more.

Quote from: FlamingRain on Today at 12:54 AMFrom the Reinhardt perspective, what I've read of the Pivot System and talked/learned from Doug Elliott (and he can correct me if I'm wrong), the jaw placement is dependent on the embouchure type that fits your anatomy.

No, that's generally correct. Still aligning jaws may change some even a lot of stuff. Myself, from slightly down stream I moved to a slightly upstream setup. I am a player that doesn't pivot too much, but still does visibly on extreme registers and big intervals.

 Quotethe jaw placement is dependent on the embouchure type that fits your anatomy.
Yes that is correct. That is why you don´t try to copy somebody else.
Follow you physicel set up.

It's more or less OK to "copy somebody else" if they're the same embouchure type as you.

One of my own corrections, during the 10 years I spent studying with Reinhardt, was to move my jaw out to a more aligned position.  It was more appropriate for my embouchure type and helped everything about my playing, but it took a while to settle in.

The resting position of my jaw is now farther out than it was before.

QuoteIt's more or less OK to "copy somebody else" if they're the same embouchure type as you.
Well, yes. Many student try to look like their idols. Most often they are the same type.

Experimenting with embouchure setup doesn't necessarily mean that we want to copy player X or Y. Just testing what works and what doesn't. If you end up with more efficient setup nobody will or should complain....

I have quite a big overbite and have always played down.

The times I have tried aligning my jaw I just can't buzz my lips properly and sound awful.

I used to have the mouthpiece placed very low down as that was where it felt the most comfortable but it hampered my upper register.

Now that I've put it higher it's freeing my lip do what it wants to do more naturally and the high notes are so much easier....pity that it's buggered my trigger register!

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jul 30, 2017, 06:23AM
One of my own corrections, during the 10 years I spent studying with Reinhardt, was to move my jaw out to a more aligned position.  It was more appropriate for my embouchure type and helped everything about my playing, but it took a while to settle in.

The resting position of my jaw is now farther out than it was before.

This is exactly my experience as well. Apart from a slight thinning of my lower register it's been a major improvement in every other aspect. I've been able to move up a m/p size  with no loss of upper range, plus I don't suffer the lip "fade" often lasting for several days after a brutal gig.

Quote from: bonenick on Jul 30, 2017, 09:27AMExperimenting with embouchure setup doesn't necessarily mean that we want to copy player X or Y. Just testing what works and what doesn't. If you end up with more efficient setup nobody will or should complain....


I was talking about some of my former students. Experimenting with embouchure is allright, if it does not work you stop. But some students don´t stop when they should.

Quote from: bonenick on Jul 30, 2017, 09:27AMExperimenting with embouchure setup doesn't necessarily mean that we want to copy player X or Y. Just testing what works and what doesn't. If you end up with more efficient setup nobody will or should complain....


I was talking about some of my former students. Experimenting with embouchure is allright, if it does not work you stop. But some students don´t stop when they should.