TromboneChat

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BAC-Custom-Bass-Trombone-/142454628109?hash=item212af51f0d:g:4hgAAOSwOzZZdOCQ

This is a lot of $$$ for a BAC.  Is this Shires parts???

DD

Must be a good horn if it got played twice before going on eBay......

For a single valve, non modular bass with a 9" bell. Doesn't look like Shires parts to me, but I could be wrong.  It is the first instance of an Instrument Innovations rotor I've seen though.  I bet it does play well, but not $9k well 

Whoa. For that price, I'd want it customized to MY specs. I also don't see what would cause it to cost that much, and the advertisement doesn't mention either.

Same person selling a BAC-restored 42 for $5000 as well. Does BAC not offer trial period? Maybe because they were custom order? Assuming their original cost to be at least as much, it's pretty hefty jump of faith to order one in the first place without a return policy.

I think I'm gonna sell my mint condition Bundy for $900.

For $9k, maybe you wouldn't get such a big water trap in your F attachment. After 10 minutes of playing trigger notes, you're going to be blowing bubbles.

Quote from: hyperbolica on Jul 25, 2017, 01:09PMFor $9k, maybe you wouldn't get such a big water trap in your F attachment. After 10 minutes of playing trigger notes, you're going to be blowing bubbles.
TWO water traps.

I think it's the tuning slide brace.  Custom.

Who cares about functionality when it looks cool?!...

Quote from: greenbean on Jul 25, 2017, 02:28PMWho cares about functionality when it looks cool?!...


I'm pretty sure thats the BAC slogan.

It actually looks pretty conventional for something coming out of BAC...

Anyone know what the lead time is to get a horn from BAC? There are some people who are willing to pay a premium to get something "right now" rather than wait. I worked with a guy who bought a Dodge Viper when they first came out. Took several months for delivery. He drove it for a while, then resold for the original purchase price to someone who just had to have one "right now".

I'm still laughing.

Probably Ashton Kutcher

"You've been punked !!!!"

Maybe it's a "Maxwell Smart" trombone that plays all the right notes and rhythms for you!
You just hold it!
Sam

Quote from: JohnL on Jul 25, 2017, 02:40PMIt actually looks pretty conventional for something coming out of BAC...

Anyone know what the lead time is to get a horn from BAC? There are some people who are willing to pay a premium to get something "right now" rather than wait.

Wouldn’t surprise me if a BAC guy wasn’t behind the listing.

If you pay more and pay the full amount upfront you'll get a horn in 3 weeks.

If you're an artist that Mike made a crap horn for you and he offers to make another for free because he feels bad it'll take Five Months. And then be too heavy to hold for more than 25 minutes.

The horns are priced in line with Shires and Rath but you'll be lucky if they're the same quality.

So a Shires cost Bass trombone with extra dough for speedy delivery and looking cool guy...

Pretty much makes sense...sad.

This is my first time hearing of BAC horns - do they have a bad reputation for their quality? They look pretty darned cool.. maybe not $9000-cool, but pretty flippin' cool if it's worth anything.

People who speak badly of someone speak the loudest.

I'm tired of all this bashing of BAC and Monette and whoever else makes things and sells them for a lot of money. People wouldn't pay for it if they didn't want it and they wouldn't be able to keep doing it if no one was happy.

I'm not defending them just because I had Mike make me some things that I designed. I'm defending BAC because of how good the service I, personally, got. I payed him in parts because he said the horns he had in queue already would take some time. He was happy to work with me that way. And it only took a couple weeks and that includes him and I talking on the phone and emailing about all the ideas I had and the designs I sent to him. He contacted me every time something was done with some photos and it was delivered quickly after he said the work was done. You can see a flashy brace I designed in my profile picture, but the shape of the ring I put my thumb through is the main thing I wanted with that. The "S" was something I thought artfully connected the ring to the bell. It's far more comfortable for me than the original which was fine to begin with. But mine allows me to hold the horn which pulls the weight back and it's no longer any bit nose heavy. He also did a tuning slide to my spec as well as a slide for a different trombone. All with exactly the results I wanted.

I won't speak for anyone else. I had a great time working with Mike and his horn builders and I would do it again.

Geez, FPT, I thought you were showing off your Getzen "The Dude" trombone, which has a similar (but pretty shoddy) brace.

Bacl to the topic: the horn seems to show a ding in the bell.  For $9K I'd expect it to be pristine.

Quote from: RJMason on Jul 25, 2017, 07:43PMIf you're an artist that Mike made a crap horn for you and he offers to make another for free because he feels bad it'll take Five Months. And then be too heavy to hold for more than 25 minutes.
I feel like there is a story here... Would you mind telling it?

Like everyone else is saying, it's a good looking horn, more so than some of their others, but no way it's worth $9K.

Only used bass trombones I can imagine selling for that much, solely because of their rarity, would be a Williams 10 or a original Conn Fuchs but even then the ones I've seen sold for much less then 9K. Are there even any other bass trombones on the market at 9K? How much are the Thein Ben Van D. horns?

Same seller is also selling a pimped out Bach 42 for 5K

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bach-Strad-42-trombone-Restoration-by-BAC-Music/142454669587

That finish looks really uneven... Personally I rather would have forced a patina then paint one on like that.

Quote from: BGuttman on Jul 25, 2017, 09:59PMBacl to the topic: the horn seems to show a ding in the bell.  For $9K I'd expect it to be pristine.I think that might just be reflection. OTOH, I see something out there at rim at between 4 and 5 o'clock. Kinda dark to be acid bleed, though.

Quote from: mr.deacon on Jul 25, 2017, 10:30PMI feel like there is a story here... Would you mind telling it?

I think he just did ...

I guess if you're into bling then maybe you will be prepared to fork out the cash but for that kind of money you are better off going to Rath, Shires, Edwards or M&W.....

Quote from: bassboneman on Jul 25, 2017, 04:43PMMaybe it's a "Maxwell Smart" trombone that plays all the right notes and rhythms for you!
You just hold it!

For 9k, it better be a freaking Debbie Does Dallas horn!!! (You don't blow it; it blows you!)

I think the BVD Thein is closer to 12K, so this is a bargain.

Daveydud, there has been a ton of bashing on BAC here, and I am personally not into the asthetic of the BAC horns other than their most basic Williams  restorations, HOWEVER, I have played one of the prototype complete Eliott Mason trombones that he sold to my friend, one of his students. Sure, it looked like something this guy would play in the Harkonnen Band:



But it played easily and had a huge sound. I didn't like the wire thin slide grip though. I'd recommend the EM horn made with a normal grip.

Alert!!! It's been lowered to $6000!!!!

I picked up a bass trombone with some BAC repairs and custom split triggers.  Now I have to have an actual professional repair tech replace everything... correctly. 

One more data point.

It's been marked down to $6,000. 33% savings. It won't last long at that price! Get it now!

Quote from: bassboneman on Jul 25, 2017, 04:43PMMaybe it's a "Maxwell Smart" trombone that plays all the right notes and rhythms for you!
You just hold it!
Sam

My brother Maxwell, doesn't play trombone.
Yes, I have a brother named Maxwell Smart.
Yes, he caught a lot of crap growing up (especially from school teachers).
Not many people today remember Maxwell Smart and his shoe phone.

As for $9K, I'd pass all day long and twice on Sunday.

T.

BAC makes great horns, but not all the time. I have colleagues that have had great exchanges and experiences with them.

I never really have as I end up having to bring every horn made there I've owned (3 trombones) to a pro in NYC to make them actually playable in a freelance world. If you only play a little bit or only have one gig with a pop group (I play with five-seven groups in a given year) then maybe the horns would've worked out. But they would literally fall apart in my hands on a gig. All three horns.

So maybe I just got unlucky...three times...but 2 + 3 times I was a BAC Artist.

If they made the same trombone for me that they made for my friend Evan Oberla than I'd still be on the train, that is a beast of a horn evan owns.

My modified 3B has an amazing Williams rotor and the trigger section sounds great--some of Mike's best work---but the horn is heavier than a double valve bass and the lacquer is so caked on the bell the sound is deadened while the lacquer on the slide started peeling off after two weeks....

I'm sorry Full pedal Bone that you're so upset but I always speak my mind and this is based on my real life experiences as a professional trombonist in the US working on some of the highest stake gigs--perfection is required and I can't be afraid my horn is going to fall apart while I'm playing the Daytona 500 with lady antebellum or iHeart Radio Festival with Taylor Swift.

Back to the Bass trombone--I don't think that horn is worth more than $4K and I think $2500 is fair. that Olsen valve looks nice!

-RJM

Quote from: mr.deacon on Jul 25, 2017, 10:34PMSame seller is also selling a pimped out Bach 42 for 5K

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bach-Strad-42-trombone-Restoration-by-BAC-Music/142454669587

That finish looks really uneven... Personally I rather would have forced a patina then paint one on like that.
See, the work on that horn just doesn't look good. It looks sloppy. Also, the F attachment tuning slide looks kinda hokey, sticks out a bunch, and I'm pretty sure that the tubes are not parallel, at least from that picture.

And again, the finish just is not nice looking. I would have rather left it raw and let it age.

So... do they actually make good horns, or do they only sometimes just not botch unneeded cosmetic conversions?

I know they used to make original horns, but it seems like nowadays, besides the Elliott Mason, all their work is cosmetic stuff done to other horns that other people made.

Quote from: ronkny on Yesterday at 08:23 AMIt's been marked down to $6,000. 33% savings. It won't last long at that price! Get it now!

Well, not at that price. It'll soon go down to $850. Act now!

I just think once something like this has been talked about we don't need another thread every month talking about it again so the same salty people can say the same things.

I'm not playing with Taylor Swift but I do record with a few bands and travel every week to play to make part of my living. The only horns that ever fell apart on me were a Holton and a Bach. But, again, my experience is not a full on BAC build, but modifications and custom parts for an existing horn.

I've played one really great BAC horn, owned by a colleague here in NYC. It was great! Very heavy, but man, what character and response it had.

I've also played nearly 10 others which did not make me want to go out and buy one. 

I showed this eBay listing to a friend while in a session yesterday and she actually emailed the seller. Apparently Mike sold him that horn for over $9000!

This is the Internet, and know one knows if you're a dog, but wow, if he is telling the truth!...Rough.

No experience whatsoever with their instruments, but in the topic of them taking quite a bit of heat on the forum.....

If you're gonna name your brand BEST American Craftsmanship, better live up to the name, or else be prepared for the ridicule you'll get.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Yesterday at 11:19 AMNo experience whatsoever with their instruments, but in the topic of them taking quite a bit of heat on the forum.....

If you're gonna name your brand BEST American Craftsmanship, better live up to the name, or else be prepared for the ridicule you'll get.
Exactly. A lot of the modifications I have seen are what I would consider "ugly", or "primitive chic", where you make something look industrial and made from parts, but somehow it's supposed to be "high end."

There are many VERY skilled craftsmen out there, and Mike C is the only one with the audacity to market himself as the "Best American Craftsman". I remember when they were doing that crowd funding thing for some machinery that would allow them to spin really thick bells, or something like that.

I haven't had any long term experience with their horns, or with the company as a customer, so I can't comment on that, but I do usually find that many legendary craftsman are a lot more humble.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Yesterday at 11:19 AMNo experience whatsoever with their instruments, but in the topic of them taking quite a bit of heat on the forum.....

If you're gonna name your brand BEST American Craftsmanship, better live up to the name, or else be prepared for the ridicule you'll get.

I don't know Mike very well, just a few conversations here and there, but I get the impression that the name is an Acronym looking for meaning.  For a few years it had the side meaning of BACH (adding in the Horn Doctor part).  At a time when a lot of the work was modifying Bach horns.  His son's initials are B.A.C, if i recall correctly.  Plenty of meaning to cram into the name.  To me it feels like he had the acronym first, not the name.

Cheers,
Andy

Quote from: daveyboy37 on Yesterday at 10:25 AM See, the work on that horn just doesn't look good. It looks sloppy. Also, the F attachment tuning slide looks kinda hokey, sticks out a bunch, and I'm pretty sure that the tubes are not parallel, at least from that picture.

And again, the finish just is not nice looking. I would have rather left it raw and let it age.

Check out the handslide crook!

Quote from: bassclef on Yesterday at 11:46 AMCheck out the handslide crook!

Thats... kind of close to an elliptical crook.

Quote from: ntap on Yesterday at 11:06 AMI showed this eBay listing to a friend while in a session yesterday and she actually emailed the seller. Apparently Mike sold him that horn for over $9000!

This is the Internet, and know one knows if you're a dog, but wow, if he is telling the truth!...Rough.
AHHHHH Woof!!!

Quote from: daveyboy37 on Yesterday at 10:25 AM Also, the F attachment tuning slide looks kinda hokey, sticks out a bunch, and I'm pretty sure that the tubes are not parallel, at least from that picture.
I don't think that's something you can determine from a photo. Note that the shot is taken from above, so the part of the F-slide that is higher up would be closer to the camera and therefore appear larger. You really can't eyeball if a tuning slide is straight; you need calipers.

I work at BAC and this topic has been raging on someone's FB page all night.

The seller had the horn listed at the wrong price apparently, that's why it was lowered. Don't ask me how/where he got $9k from, I may work here but it's only been a few months.

Also can't speak for the quality of this horn as opposed to any other BACs, especially custom horns as each is made differently (and I've only gotten to try one for about 30 seconds). The one I got to try was small bore and I thought it was quite good, nice balance, centered tone, projected very nicely. It was definitely a professional-level instrument.

The large bore "Artist" series horns that I've gotten to try have been "ok". Sound-wise they seem fine, like a smaller-feeling version of my Bach 42. But I am so far not a fan of whatever rotor is being used. Maybe I'm just spoiled by the Hagmann. Slides have all been fantastic, that's one thing they've gotten right on every BAC horn I've tried so far. I get the impression that a lot of prototyping has been going on up until this year, and things are starting to take shape for what they want their "Artist" series to be. Interesting stuff!

Quote from: elmsandr on Yesterday at 11:41 AMI don't know Mike very well, just a few conversations here and there, but I get the impression that the name is an Acronym looking for meaning.  For a few years it had the side meaning of BACH (adding in the Horn Doctor part).  At a time when a lot of the work was modifying Bach horns.  His son's initials are B.A.C, if i recall correctly.  Plenty of meaning to cram into the name.  To me it feels like he had the acronym first, not the name.

He was a member of the Boston Crusaders drum and bugle corps, also known by the acronym "BAC" (Boston area Crusaders or Bad Ass Crusaders). His logos and branding are also borrowed from the corps.

I had been trying to work with Mike for four years. I've moved on.

 He's always "in the protyping" stages, and promises that "the next batch of instruments are going to be made better". Or "I was working on deals in china for our marching band instruments while someone else finished the horns. He didn't have a strong sense of craftsmanship. But now I make them all by hand."

The Elliot Mason slide BROKE during NAMM 2016. The horns cost more than Shires--buy a Shires and get Don Sawday in LA to do a custom lacquer job.

Or go buy a Lawler for $2600 with two flares and a case.

It's the same song and dance--sometimes he strikes Gold with a brilliant horn. Most times they are duds. 8/10 pros that use his hornsjust go back to their originals for most gigs and studio work. Just rock them on TV when it doesn't really matter.

I wonder if guys said this about Vincent Bach 80 years ago haha.

eBay Buyers Beware. Go to KC and pick out a horn yourself. I hope that you find yourself with a gem! And after 10 years the prototyping is FINALLLY done....

I know I'm not El or Jim Pugh (Steely Dan's MD told me on a Netflix session that my Bach sounds way better than my BAC and to switch back to it mid session.....) and y'all don't know me, but if you think mike is going to pay attention to your horn just as much as their horns, you'll be sadly mistaken.

I just want to end by saying: Why do I care so much?

Because I don't want any more people to sink $6-7K into trombones that consistently break on your freelancing gigs mid session without proper support to get them fixed. My schedule is too busy to ship a horn to Kansas City every two months to fix a new problem.

This is my livelihood. If you're a hobbyist, enjoy a shiny unique horn. But every day my horn doesn't do what I need it to do that hurts my bottom line.

Ultimately I hope everyone can find a horn that they love that allows them to express their individuality and musicality. BAC, Rath, edwards, Yamaha, Wessex, anything! That's what it's all about!

Quote from: RJMason on Today at 09:29 AMI just want to end by saying: Why do I care so much?

Because I don't want any more people to sink $6-7K into trombones that consistently break on your freelancing gigs mid session without proper support to get them fixed. My schedule is too busy to ship a horn to Kansas City every two months to fix a new problem.

This is my livelihood. If you're a hobbyist, enjoy a shiny unique horn. But every day my horn doesn't do what I need it to do that hurts my bottom line.

Ultimately I hope everyone can find a horn that they love that allows them to express their individuality and musicality. BAC, Rath, edwards, Yamaha, Wessex, anything! That's what it's all about!



Good posts.

Hey Everyone,

I wanted to share some information I collected in my curiosity about this Ebay post. Here is a summary. I will also attach the screenshots the seller sent to me and screenshots of specific information from my Facebook post.

I contacted the seller and he seemed to really know nothing about trombones. He originally told me that he spent over $10,000 on it, but I asked for screenshots of some sort of invoice.

In the screen shots, he told the BAC correspondent that he didn't know if he wanted a single or double valve bass, so the correspondent suggest that he buy a double trigger bass for $7,627.86 plus a convertible neckpipe to make it a single trigger bass for $1,150 plus custom engraving for an additional $300 and a total of $9,077.86. The seller says he got the $10,000 number because of case/some other extras on the horn. I'll let you form your own opinions on the practicality of this suggestion.

He then told the correspondent that he wants to go with a single valve because he doesn't play bass trombone often so they quoted $7,504.89 plus engraving for $300 for a total of $7,804.89 and he said he would have someone else make a downpayment on his behalf.

The seller promptly apologized to me that he got the quotes mixed up (again it states in his email that someone else seem to take care of the financial side of the transaction, so this is believable to me) and changed the price immediately.

Before I had this information from the seller, someone tagged Mike Corrigan in a post I made asking trombonist of Facebook what they thought, so I figured I would take the opportunity to ask him how much he sold the horn for. Mike then proceeded to posted inaccurate prices on my feed for some reason and said that he is too busy to hammer bells all the time despite the email correspondence from the seller to BAC that told the buyer "this instrument will be hand made 100% by Mike C" in the email I have attached. I also attached Mike saying he did not build this horn as he promised the seller he did. This horn was built in the last 6 months, and it seems hard to believe that Mike would have hardly any memory of this horn, I know if I felt that I had made a bass trombone that I felt was worth pricing more than Edwards, Shires, Rath, or most horns, it would be incredibly memorable and quite the accomplishment.

I honestly thought Mike would be happy that I brought this public attention that he could proudly say "Yes! I charged "$$$" for this horn, not $10,000! If you would like one exactly like this, don't buy from this Ebay post, buy directly from me!"  I was instead personally attacked by staff at BAC for simply trying to find out the price of this horn. I made no comments about my opinion on quality. I can't help but be confused by the  defensive and aggressive nature of the tone that came about on the Facebook post after simply asking the price if the company is truly confident that they are selling their horns at fair prices.  Ron Wilkins, master trombonist, who worked with Mike for 7 years chimed in about his experience for the first time publicly. I posted a screenshot of what he had to say. Ray Mason has also had a lot of experience. Ray and Ron both play gigs at the highest level and are incredibly knowledgable about horns and what it takes to perform at the highest levels.

Based off of this information, it really appears that some dishonest things were happening behind the scenes.

Just figured I would share the facts I gathered as I see a few things floating around on here about my Facebook post.


Here is a link to the original Facebook post for full context:
https://www.facebook.com/BeccaBassBone/posts/10209835716319560?comment_id=10209850143480230&reply_comment_id=10209850174441004&notif_t=feed_comment&notif_id=1501173240538437

The upload folder on the site appears to full, thus I can't upload the screenshots. All of the supporting information (including the sellers email screenshots) is on the Facebook post I linked to.