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Are there any books out there to help with learning the modes?

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:11 pm Are there any books out there to help with learning the modes?

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Modes are major scales starting on different notes. They have Greek names. A major scale as we know it is Ionian. A major scale starting on the 2nd note (degree) is called Dorian (in the key of C major, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D). Here's a page with some information:

http://www.musictheoryfundamentals.com/ ... /modes.php

Just for the sake of clarification, modes are not major scales starting on different notes. They are stand-alone scale-wise patterns of varying intervals and varying character. Learning them as major scales starting on different notes is just a convenient way of learning them.

Gary wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 3:36 pm Just for the sake of clarification, modes are not major scales starting on different notes. They are stand-alone scale-wise patterns of varying intervals and varying character. Learning them as major scales starting on different notes is just a convenient way of learning them.

Indeed. There are ways of classifying modes as major or minor, so saying they're all a "major" scale is a bit confusing. i.e. dorian, aeoloian, phrygian are all different "minor" modes. Also, the modern tonal major mode arguably evolved out of Lydian rather than Ionian (or maybe more precisely Ionian emerged as a retheorisation of many cases of Lydian mode), and the tonal minor mode absolutely evolved out of Dorian, not Aeolian as is usually said (even though the so-called natural/ancient minor shares the same notes as Aeolian)

I don't know of any books for modes. What do you want to get out of learning the modes? How do you plan to apply them to the music you play?

I personally think about them like BGuttman thinks about them.

JLivi wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:37 pm I don't know of any books for modes. What do you want to get out of learning the modes? How do you plan to apply them to the music you play?

I personally think about them like BGuttman thinks about them.

Actually, I try to think about them as little as possible. A painful remnant from Theory Class

JLivi wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:37 pm I don't know of any books for modes.

A little misleading. Modes were the major scalular forms in the Medieval and Renaissance, several hundred years. There have been numerous treatises and books written on them.

In more modern times, there has been a revisiting of the modes in a more modern context both classical and jazz musics. Again, plenty of written resources are available.

There are also various modes, not Western construction, which are used in other world musics. There are sources written in English on these, as well.

If you own the Arban the Major Scale section covers the modes up to the 5th scale degree if I recall correctly. When you run out of keys go back and change the key signatures: Bb to B, Eb to E, etc. This is a limited but valuable exploration of modes.

Another thing you could do is change the key signature of an etude to whichever mode you want to work on; Slama comes to mind for some reason, but nearly anything will do. For example, if the etude is in D major - 2 sharps - change the key signature to D Dorian no sharps/flats. You'll have to think about accidentals and how they fit the new key signature, but this is a simple way to explore your mode of choice.

Le Tromboniste and Gary are absolutely right. But in "jazz theory" the Greek names are used to name the different degres av of tha major scales like what BGuttman is taght. I think that is actually a bad idea that has cased lots of missunderstanding and confusion. If you are interested on music befor Bach the modes are intersting. If not, Arban is a very good method to learn how the major and minor scales work.

The use of modes is not limited to old music. There is plenty of contemporary music written in both the jazz and classical genres where modes are stand-alone forms.

We may be saying the same things just using different words. I just want to clarify that modal use is both old and contemporary and that they are not a part of a major scale. Relating them to a Major Scale is a convenient way of learning the modes but it should be remembered that they, in use, have nothing to do with a Major Scale.

I think that knowledge of the theory and the notes in the scale is of limited use. What is important is the chord structures and pattern and most of all how they sound different. Go to Rick Beato’s site on YouTube. His channel on scales and modes has 94 videos. He uses a lot of example of commonly known music to illustrate how the modes have been applied.

Mark Levine’s “The Jazz Theory Book” has a detailed explanation of modes and how they are used in jazz. Remember that old Johnny Carson / Ed McMahon routine, “everything you ever wanted to know about ... is in this book”? Well in this case, it is.

Gary wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 9:37 am The use of modes is not limited to old music. There is plenty of contemporary music written in both the jazz and classical genres where modes are stand-alone forms.

We may be saying the same things just using different words. I just want to clarify that modal use is both old and contemporary and that they are not a part of a major scale. Relating them to a Major Scale is a convenient way of learning the modes but it should be remembered that they, in use, have nothing to do with a Major Scale.

Yes Gary that is right. Both in contemporary music and jazz there are examples of modal music.

The way the Greek names are used to the different degrees of the major scales have nothing to do with that.

Mark Levin commented about the strange use in minor there the 5th degree should be called Mixolydian b2 b6, it should to keep the order be named Phrygian (#3 Picardic third).

Well older jazz musisians like Sonny Rollins did not care for that use, but we can not stop the use of missunderstaded names of modes, so we have to except that younger musians get cunfused.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 3:43 amMark Levin commented about the strange use in minor there the 5th degree should be called Mixolydian b2 b6, it should to keep the order be named Phrygian (#3 Picardic third).

Could it be that Levin is not seeing this as the harmonic organization of an entire piece of music so much as identifying that chord in a chordal-movement context?

In case anyone is interested, another nice approach to thinking about modes is given in The Harmonic Experience by W. A. Mathieu. A big part of his approach is using pitch lattices, and is heavily influenced by Indian raga singing. There are many ways to approach modes.

When most folks mention "modes" (particularly Jazz musicians) they are referring to modes based off the Major scale (Ionian), but you can also have other modes as a key center, and that's really important when you get into songwriting and analyzing Pop tunes.
Jazz musicians focus mostly on modes of the Major scale (Ionian, Dorian, etc...) with some Pure Minor, Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor thrown in.

Pop musicians and Songwriters focus on other modes as key centers:

Key of Dorian
Key of Mixolydian
Key of Aelion
in addition to progressions based off Ionian....