TromboneChat

Are there any books published on the fundamentals of mouthpiece design? Regardless of language.

What about brass instrument design?

For the physics side (describing the shape of the bell and cup of mouthpiece. Check out the writings of Arthur Benade. Not the best read, but good books that give a starting point to explaining what is going on.

Cheers,
Andy

Thanks a lot!

You may want to check various mouthpiece makers. Stork has some information here

https://storkcustom.com/doctor-mouthpiece/

I'm really interested in the way a mouthpiece maker goes about doing the calculations to balance a design, between cup volume, throat size/length, and backbore taper. I doubt they make them as just a shot in the dark.

I'm sure that no modern designer is going to be publishing something like that, but maybe someone did in the past.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:08 pm I'm really interested in the way a mouthpiece maker goes about doing the calculations to balance a design, between cup volume, throat size/length, and backbore taper. I doubt they make them as just a shot in the dark.

I'm sure that no modern designer is going to be publishing something like that, but maybe someone did in the past.

If you ever get the chance and have several hours to spare....chat to Denis Wick

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:08 pm I'm really interested in the way a mouthpiece maker goes about doing the calculations to balance a design, between cup volume, throat size/length, and backbore taper. I doubt they make them as just a shot in the dark.

I'm sure that no modern designer is going to be publishing something like that, but maybe someone did in the past.

You may doubt the shot in the dark.... but it's way that's been used. More common is to copy something that works and try to 'develop' it.

Chris

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:04 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:08 pm I'm really interested in the way a mouthpiece maker goes about doing the calculations to balance a design, between cup volume, throat size/length, and backbore taper. I doubt they make them as just a shot in the dark.

I'm sure that no modern designer is going to be publishing something like that, but maybe someone did in the past.

If you ever get the chance and have several hours to spare....chat to Denis Wick

Several hours.... oohhh... that could be EXPENSIVE!!!

Chris

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:08 am

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:04 am


If you ever get the chance and have several hours to spare....chat to Denis Wick

Several hours.... oohhh... that could be EXPENSIVE!!!

Chris

I agree. That doesn't sound practical unless he was a relative or an old friend. Lessons with Joe Alessi are $300 an hour or so. I'm sure Denis Wick's time is just as valuable.

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:08 am

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:04 am


If you ever get the chance and have several hours to spare....chat to Denis Wick

Several hours.... oohhh... that could be EXPENSIVE!!!

Chris

Chris like me, i guess oyu have listened to Denis talk....and I could hear the twinkle in your eye when I read that comment

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:21 am

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:08 am

Several hours.... oohhh... that could be EXPENSIVE!!!

Chris

Chris like me, i guess oyu have listened to Denis talk....and I could hear the twinkle in your eye when I read that comment

Denis was my teacher at college. We have bumped into each other over the years and he is always interesting to talk to. He knows a lot about mouthpieces and mutes, but that is stating the obvious. When I was a student he told me that the most important thing about the rim profile is that the high point is toward the inside. Sound advice.

Chris

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:35 am

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:21 am


Chris like me, i guess oyu have listened to Denis talk....and I could hear the twinkle in your eye when I read that comment

Denis was my teacher at college. We have bumped into each other over the years and he is always interesting to talk to. He knows a lot about mouthpieces and mutes, but that is stating the obvious. When I was a student he told me that the most important thing about the rim profile is that the high point is toward the inside. Sound advice.

Chris

I thought you had studied with him, but wasn't 100% On the trombone chat FB page I have just shared Denis's masterclass from Nashville in 1981. Having stumbled across it on YouTube this morning..... As it was several years before he retired he is playing and demonstrating various things

Sounds like Ian Bousfield's mouthpiece.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:57 am Sounds like Ian Bousfield's mouthpiece.

And who did Ian study with ??

So, many designs do not have a theoretical backing... they are the result of copy and trial and error. Some do have some theoretical basis, but much of that may be somewhat after the fact. For example, Vincent Bach had thoughts and theories, but without a full dive into his design notes, I would be unable to guess how much of his design was theory and how much was drafting based on experience.

Monette certainly has some mathematical theory into their newer designs... sometimes if you catch him in the right mood you can get some great information by email or a quick call. Questions have to be well thought out however.

Scott Hartman has been into making mouthpieces for a while, I’m not sure how much math he’s doing, but he is working with some interesting designs and is a great guy to talk with.

And, of course, Doug E. does as much mouthpiece design and manufacturing as anybody on the planet.

Good luck,
Andy

It seems a lot of mouthpiece design stems from a player (usually a noted player) coming to a designer and saying "I like XYZ mouthpiece, but I also want ...". This prompts the designer to make mods to a mouthpiece, If it works, the designer may try to figure out what happened, but often it stops there.

Jerome Wiss makes extensive use of computer models for both his horns and his mouthpieces. He also uses 3D printing for prototyping.

His site has some interesting information and he is making trumpets with one of the more revolutionary changes, only two ports per valve vs three. Check him out...

http://jeromewiss.com/en/conception-en/mouthpieces/

It helps if you know French though this is the English version of his site.

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:01 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:57 am Sounds like Ian Bousfield's mouthpiece.

And who did Ian study with ??

Not Denis Wick, as far as I know. Although he did take the torch from him in London.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:21 pm

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:01 am

And who did Ian study with ??

Not Denis Wick, as far as I know. Although he did take the torch from him in London.

In his book he says that he started getting lessons with Dudley Bright - who then at the Hallé - aged 14,won the the Shell London Symphony Orchestra Music Scholarship aged 15 which put him on the path to orchestral playing. He got the principal job with the Hallé at 18 and didn't have a teacher at the time.

He mentions being heavily influenced by Denis but doesn't say any more.

Ross

Sorry my throw away line about several hours with Denis seems to have diverted the thread away from the subject....it was only meant to imply that asking Denis one question on his approach to mouthpiece design would have you learn so much in his answer to that one question, and even at his advancing age Denis's brain just doesnt stop comming up with ideas

of course on the forum we have Doug and his approach to design