TromboneChat

biggiesmalls wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:36 pm Feel free to start a new thread...

Done.

biggiesmalls wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:36 pm
For context, here's the entire paragraph:

"I prefer a wet embouchure over the dry (although I know good players who use a dry embouchure) because: (1) it causes pressure from the mouthpiece to be less effective (you then have to learn to get the high notes the correct way- by proper embouchure formation and breath support), (2) it seems to facilitate interval flexibility (and I don't mean by scooting the mouthpiece around on the lips) and (3) it tends to give one more of a feeling of isolation from the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece should not feel like a part of the embouchure!"

Buddy Baker, Tenor Trombone Method

Question: Is the mouthpiece part of the embouchure? Discuss.

No. But it shapes the embouchure and locks it into place. It also dictates the airflow and feedback/pressure, which also shapes the embouchure.

I don't have a copy of Baker's book any longer (or at least, I don't know where it is). I used to practice and teach from that book fairly extensively, though. I don't recall that Baker has a whole lot of objective information about the embouchure in there in the first place.

I suppose the question can be answered that it depends on what you're defining as "the embouchure." I also note that what Baker is talking about is what it *feels* like (to him). For someone else, it may feel like the mouthpiece is a part of the embouchure and this feel may change according to the player's particular stage of development. Maybe we could say that it's a worth while goal for it to feel a particular way.

We know that the embouchure is part of the larger system and reacts to the placement of the mouthpiece on the lips. Free buzzing is different from rim buzzing which is different from playing. Where an individual brass musician places the mouthpiece on the lips is an important piece of the player's embouchure technique.

Ultimately I don't think it's contradictory to say that a goal might be that it "feels" like the mouthpiece isn't a part of the embouchure to describe a playing sensation while at the same time noting that the mouthpiece placement on the lips is an important factor that should get attention at some point too. It's just important for teachers to communicate when they are teaching through analogy and playing sensations and when they are teaching through more objective descriptions of playing mechanics.

Dave

This brings to mind a lesson I taught just yesterday.
The gentleman was having trouble with high range - F above the bass staff was starting to break up. Not really high range at all, he couldn't get out of the middle range.

I determined that he should be a very high placement embouchure, but he was placing 50/50 with his horn angle downward. In other words, playing with a medium placement, and using the mechanics of that type.

By the end of an hour he was getting around the horn easily, with a clear sound and the new correct mechanics, and able to freebuzz well. Not really much additional range yet, but that brings me to the point of this thread.

The mouthpiece placement, right or wrong, causes a groove to form in the lip tissue. That essentially makes the mouthpiece part of the embouchure. If it's actually the optimal placement, everything is perfect, a groove that matches the embouchure type. However, if it's based on wrong assumptions - thinking that the mouthpiece should be "centered" in this case - the "old groove" makes it very difficult to make positive changes in the right direction.

I went through this myself many years ago so I'm very familiar with it.

Wilktone wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:21 am
Ultimately I don't think it's contradictory to say that a goal might be that it "feels" like the mouthpiece isn't a part of the embouchure to describe a playing sensation while at the same time noting that the mouthpiece placement on the lips is an important factor that should get attention at some point too.

Dave

Dave makes an important distinction here.

The questions "Should the mouthpiece feel like part of the embouchure?" and "Is the mouthpiece part of the embouchure?" are really two different questions. The first question is subjective, while the second is objective.

Doug has given a thoughtful and informative answer to the OP's objective question, while the Baker quote is concerned with the subjective feeling of the mouthpiece on the lips while playing.

Assuming that my mouthpiece placement and embouchure mechanics are correct (thanks to a lesson from Dave and a couple from Doug a decade or so ago), I find that the mouthpiece starts to feel like part of my embouchure the moment I play beyond my level of endurance while practicing and begin to use more mouthpiece pressure in the high register.

That's when the Baker quote immediately pops into my head: it's a reminder that rest, not pressure, is what I need at that moment. Even when I'm not tired, if I find myself missing high register attacks, I think of the Baker quote to remind myself to form a proper embouchure, use proper airflow, and use the minimum necessary mouthpiece pressure to attack the note.