Teele book question

[bigbandbone]

With nothing but time on my hands during the pandemic I figured what a great time to tackle the no shift pedal range that Phil and othere's advocate. I just need to know I'm on the right track.

I can play down to pedal Ab without a shift and with volume and presence. I can play pedal G, but only mf. Pedals F#, F, and E are very soft but there.

If I keep playing PT's embouchure excercises diligently will I start do develop more volume and presence in that range? Or am I doing something wrong and need to step back and figure it our?

[tbonesullivan]

It takes a lot of time for the no-shift approach, and you need to work on it a lot. A LOT. I've been doing a lot of pedal range exercises, and 6 months equaled getting down from G to F, but F is still soft. Getting an immediate and loud pedal range is something bass trombonists spend years getting.

Only tips I can give is learn to be efficient with your air. Slow it down and get the lips moving. You can't force it.

[FOSSIL]

bigbandbone.... it takes a long time, a really long time. I did it after I left college. It's worth it as it allows you to do things that are not possible with a break or breaks.... but don't turn your back on your shifted pedals... it's best to have both. The shift becomes an overdrive, used when the regular setup is not strong enough or immediate enough.
Chris

[bigbandbone]

bigbandbone.... it takes a long time, a really long time. I did it after I left college. It's worth it as it allows you to do things that are not possible with a break or breaks.... but don't turn your back on your shifted pedals... it's best to have both. The shift becomes an overdrive, used when the regular setup is not strong enough or immediate enough.
Chris

Wow Chis! This stunned me. In my mind it was all or nothing. One or the other. I thought one would work against the other. I'm glad to hear both methods can co-exist.

I'm sure when we all start playing again there will be times when I will have to revert to a shift, but will keep working toword the no shift. I can see the advantages.

[tbonesullivan]

There's a good video out there with Alan Raph regarding the shift. He calls it the "raised embouchure" but it's the same thing.

Alan Raph is one of the great commercial bass trombone players, just like Phil Teele.

[Basbasun]

The PT book is a program where you work on the pedals on a daily order, without shift. It is good, and it works.
It takes much time. Most bass trombonists play pedals down to F-E with no shift, I the practis studio I play as low as there is pedals with no shift. I also pracise shifts from pedal Bb and down. Sometime on a gig I am expected to play a very loud pedal F, I may shift. I can play the note with no shift, but in the situation I am glad that I did practise the shift.
Buy the book, follow the instructions.
I did never meet any full time basstrombonist that did not in any situation shift. I did meet many basstrombonist.

[Bach5G]

I dug mine out today. Perfect for these long days at home.

Just to be clear, go down as far as you can without shifting (for me Db*) and then keep going with a shift. Slowly, over time, try to get lower without shifting?


* down two 8ve

[Doug Elliott]

Please check the actual wording in the book.
I don't think it says to go as far as you can and then shift.
I think I remember it says to not shift, period.
But I don't have a copy handy to check.

Did anybody here actually study with him?

[Burgerbob]

Looking through my book, he says not to shift 6 times. "Don't shift!" is the direct quote.

Might have to get these out this week, it's been a few years.

[FOSSIL]

The PT book is a program where you work on the pedals on a daily order, without shift. It is good, and it works.
It takes much time. Most bass trombonists play pedals down to F-E with no shift, I the practis studio I play as low as there is pedals with no shift. I also pracise shifts from pedal Bb and down. Sometime on a gig I am expected to play a very loud pedal F, I may shift. I can play the note with no shift, but in the situation I am glad that I did practise the shift.
Buy the book, follow the instructions.
I did never meet any full time basstrombonist that did not in any situation shift. I did meet many basstrombonist.

Your usual wisdom, bravo !

Chris.

[afugate]

I did never meet any full time basstrombonist that did not in any situation shift. I did meet many basstrombonist.

--Andy in OKC

[Bach5G]

But if you can’t play the C B and Bb without shifting?

2 choices:

1. Keep trying without shifting even if those notes don’t come out at first (presumably they will eventually)
2. Shift, play those notes, and gradually reduce the shift

[Doug Elliott]

3. Stop trying the notes that don't work and spend more time on the ones just above them.
4. The mouthpiece is too small for you. Move to one that does allow those notes without shifting.
5. But keep working on it, eventually you may be able to downsize and then you may be able to play those notes without shifting because you spent enough time doing it successfully.

[Bach5G]

Thanks Doug.

[FOSSIL]

3. Stop trying the notes that don't work and spend more time on the ones just above them.
4. The mouthpiece is too small for you. Move to one that does allow those notes without shifting.
5. But keep working on it, eventually you may be able to downsize and then you may be able to play those notes without shifting because you spent enough time doing it successfully.

Doug....I'm interested. Why is it always bigger ? Even when you haven't seen the people ?
I used to play your 116,L L8 and it worked fine...I now play a MV Bach 1 1/2G again and it works fine...range was the same on both but the sound differed.

Chris

[Bach5G]

I’m on a Yeo. I don’t think it’s too small.

[FOSSIL]

I’m on a Yeo. I don’t think it’s too small.

I would suspect the same. What you are trying to do is develop lip tissue elasticity and this takes a lot of time. Glissing down from the notes you can play toward those you are trying to play can be helpful.

Chris

[Bach5G]

Without shifting yes?

Thx CS.

[Doug Elliott]

Yes it takes a lot of time to develop (and maintain) the elasticity necessary. BUT everybody is different, both in embouchure type and lip texture, both are major factors in what works. Some players don't naturally have the lip tissue elasticity that others do.

And it can vary by temperature, humidity, diet, etc. You can have a day when nothing works. But bigger sizes, if you can handle it, give a huge advantage there by being more forgiving.

The vast majority of players are the Reinhardt IIIA embouchure that I refer to as "Very high placement" which is still ambiguous because it doesn't always look very high, especially on bass trombone. That embouchures type CAN and in most cases "should" play large mouthpieces, because there are many advantages and few disadvantages for them.

[Bach5G]

Thank you again gentlemen.

I’m a IIIA/ IIRC.

Perfect time to consider such matters.

[FOSSIL]

Yes it takes a lot of time to develop (and maintain) the elasticity necessary. BUT everybody is different, both in embouchure type and lip texture, both are major factors in what works. Some players don't naturally have the lip tissue elasticity that others do.

And it can vary by temperature, humidity, diet, etc. You can have a day when nothing works. But bigger sizes, if you can handle it, give a huge advantage there by being more forgiving.

The vast majority of players are the Reinhardt IIIA embouchure that I refer to as "Very high placement" which is still ambiguous because it doesn't always look very high, especially on bass trombone. That embouchures type CAN and in most cases "should" play large mouthpieces, because there are many advantages and few disadvantages for them.

Okay, I'll buy into that in some respects. The last day I used the 116 we had a three hour second round audition with our brass section for a new principal trombone. All the toughest excerpts eight times in three hours played by the whole section. It was brutal for all and I particularly disliked playing the Wagner Miestersinger overture bass trombone with the tune part eight times. I just couldn't sound like a tenor on that piece. The 1 1/2G went back in from that day.
Here in the UK sound concepts are different and with the young generation of bass trombone players, the old Conns and Bach 2G and 1 1/2G rule the roost.
The match of the mouthpiece to the instrument is just as important if not more important than the match to the player and old Conns like smaller mouthpieces.
I had a young pro come to me for a lesson a month ago. He was playing a massive mouthpiece that gave him no upper register and little stamina, but he thought he needed to use such a thing . I found him something a little smaller... well actually about 15 prospects, and it was the last one... finally it worked for both player and instrument.
So, big mouthpieces can, as Doug says, offer advantages, but if you have no endurance or upper register on one, you might want to think again. ... and it has to match the insrument as well.

Chris

[baileyman]

Is the PT method something like an upside-down approach to the highs? I mean, if you can stretch your 12th partial set down to the pedals, you'll have immediate access to all those notes.

Does Phil basically work this the other way, dragging a big sounding pedal set up?

[Burgerbob]

Is the PT method something like an upside-down approach to the highs? I mean, if you can stretch your 12th partial set down to the pedals, you'll have immediate access to all those notes.

Does Phil basically work this the other way, dragging a big sounding pedal set up?

No. He's all about playing the low range more like your higher range.

[Doug Elliott]

If someone has no endurance or upper register on a big mouthpiece size (or any size), they're either a different embouchure type that has no business playing that size or they're doing something seriously wrong.

[FOSSIL]

If someone has no endurance or upper register on a big mouthpiece size (or any size), they're either a different embouchure type that has no business playing that size or they're doing something seriously wrong.

The only thing this boy was doing wrong was playing on a very large mouthpiece. He came back for his next session with his playing transformed in every way...even his sound was richer and fuller...control in all registers was restored and he reported much better stamina.... and that mouthpiece is around your 112 size, so is not small.
A few years back , a new student arrived at the Conservatoire. He had auditioned the previous year and sailed in as an obvious talent.A year on, he walked in with a Stork 1 and a Shires truebore, with nothing above an F at the top of the tenor clef and the ability to play for no more than 15 minutes.... and a dreadful sound. He had gone for some lessons with a player in one of the symphonies up here and bought the same equipment that he uses... big mistake . What works for one does not work for another. As it happens, that symphony player is an ex student of mine and I put him on that Stork 1 nearly 30 years ago.
Everyone is unique.

Chris

[Basbasun]

The P.T. book is working a lot on the pedals. But the high range is include. The high range on bass is very important!
I don´t know if any body is intersted in my equipment, but my basstrombone mpc is a Bach 1/4G, I do have some
1 1/2G:s, one of them is very good, I can play all note I ever need on it with good sound. But for me the 1 1/4 makes it easier to make the sound I want. My first bass mpc was a Holton 1 1/2G I was new to the bass and hade to play some pedal F:s in the (proffesional) big band. Before I hade practised pedals on 6 3/4C down to pedal F, thanx to my teacher. Whyat am I saying? You can practice pedals on small mpc too.

[bigbandbone]

In the last several posts the upper register is mentioned. What is the required upper range for a working bass bone player? I've got a solid G above the bass clef staff. Is that enough or should I have more?

[Basbasun]

I would say that a G above the bass clef staff is enough in (most) amature bigband and amature wind orchestra. (In those band you wont need very low pedals. Ab is prolly enough) I see C5 pretty often, more often then pedal F in fact. (C5 is above your solid G) Sometimes, but rarely, there are both higher and lower tones in proffesional band and orchestras. Some composers do find out what is really possible, and use it.
I think a working basstrombonist who have a range fro pedal E to C5 has the range needed.
And good timing, good sound, can play i tune and has good social skill, and good breath.
Good luck with P.T. follow the book, play with no shift as low as you can for now, add tones as you get stronger.

[BGuttman]

In the last several posts the upper register is mentioned. What is the required upper range for a working bass bone player? I've got a solid G above the bass clef staff. Is that enough or should I have more?

There is an arrangement of "All of Me" that goes up to the C above that.

If you play classical, the Farandole from L'Arlesienne Suite #2 goes to A above your G.

Remember, the 4th trombone in a Big Band spends more time as the 4th TENOR than as the bass.

[Bach5G]

I calculate at 60 bpm, two sets on each note and 3 min breaks between sets, one Day 2 session would take about 2 hrs and 20 min.

Says the great man, “This is a lifetime routine.” It can certainly feel that way.

[timothy42b]

I calculate at 60 bpm, two sets on each note and 3 min breaks between sets, one Day 2 session would take about 2 hrs and 20 min.

Says the great man, “This is a lifetime routine.” It can certainly feel that way.

So you count? Somehow in my brain you played each note until breath ran out, 20 times for a set. I just watched his waking up video and it looked like they were playing half notes.

[Bach5G]

“Hold each note as long as possible” according to the book.

[Burgerbob]

“Hold each note as long as possible” according to the book.

Yup. Which is definitely not a whole note at 60 for most mortals.

[Bach5G]

Day 3 of Advanced Embouchure Studies.

The scale studies starting on a (very) low C was frustrating as I couldn’t get the note to speak. I managed a Db. And I ended up having to write in note names for the very lowest notes. On the plus side, I got up to the (very) high F.

So, resting 15 min now, before working my way down.

I see on page 11, PT says “Within a year, you should know how your embouchure works”. That should be just about right.

[bigbandbone]

I don't understand the vitriol in these responses. Go at your own pace. Don't criticize. I've only been working this for 3 weeks and already see improvement in my low register. Alan Ralph's excercises are similar in that you play repetative pitches everyday till they become easier. His YouTube videos helped me from trigger F down to trigger B. Burgerbob helped me with attacks and presence. Now Phil's excercises are helping me to get farther down the scale. I'm becoming a better bass trombonist thanks to all three of them!

[Bach5G]

I didn’t sense any vitriol. I’ve found the discussion helpful. This is what the Internet should be like.

[harrisonreed]

Day 3 of Advanced Embouchure Studies.

The scale studies starting on a (very) low C was frustrating as I couldn’t get the note to speak. I managed a Db. And I ended up having to write in note names for the very lowest notes. On the plus side, I got up to the (very) high F.

So, resting 15 min now, before working my way down.

I see on page 11, PT says “Within a year, you should know how your embouchure works”. That should be just about right.

I guess that depends on how in depth the author is talking about. Seeing the Sarah Willis MRI video made me realize that I still am barely scratching the surface of really knowing what goes on in there, after thinking about my own embouchure for over twenty years.

[Bach5G]

Day 4 rest day yesterday and today day 5, same as day 2.

Today, I linked my Alexa to my IPhone and to the TE tuner app and practiced against the drone. That was interesting. Playing in tune was tougher than I expected and I had to play sharper. My metronome was set at 60 bpm. It took around 3 hours, but I took a break for lunch and some housework.

[FullPedalTrombonist]

I love this book because it’s great to play and watch Netflix or Hulu with the subtitles on. I have all that time to focus on how I take each breath and how it turns into a note, how each note is structured, how stable I am, how my face feels, how much I can make myself sound how I want... I like to take a lot of time with this book.

I want to start playing through it on more than just my main mouthpiece. Especially with a new-to-me Prime Slide Design coming in. I’ll have to set out my favorite 1-1/2G, my PSD’s, and my DE’s and give it a run on a mouthpiece a day.

I really think it’s possible to make a range of mouthpieces work. I don’t think I’m doing anything wrong when I play either my 1-1/2G or my DE114. I use a slightly different approach because they feel different and I want different sounds from each, but all the notes work

[Bach5G]

Week 2, day 2. 2 sets each. Basically Eb down to E. I watched Rachel Maddow for the last half hour or so.

I took a slightly different approach today in that, after watching Phil at the Dutch open on YTube, I increased the volume (at the cost of the note length).

[bigbandbone]

I've been hitting the Teele excercises pretty hard and I'm becoming more and more convinced of the validity of his approach and the no shift embouchure. But as discussed above they are very boring.
So on the days I don't play his excercises I still want to practice the no shift concept. I've started using some old standards to make it more interesting.
For example I wrote out Stella By Starlight as GR did it with Kenton. Not just the opening phrases, but the whole song. First time through I play it in the upper register taking me up to high Ab. Second time through in the same range as GR's Kenton version with no shift. Third time through an octave below that.
I've done the same with several other tunes. Keeps it interesting!

[Basbasun]

Yes that is a good way to practise. I have used the same song, playing in all ranges and all keys. It is a good practise tune.

Yes the PT stuff is boring, but it give you a good idea about how your embouchure works.

I don´t do the whole exercise normaly, I don,t have time for it, but in the corona make me have more time so now I have been doing it for some time.

[Burgerbob]

Teele is something you do while watching a show, for sure.

[bigbandbone]

Hey all, on a single rotor bass bone what position is double pedal Bb in. With or without trigger. If with trigger slide tuned to F or E?
Sorry if this is a pretty basic question, but I just cannot find that pitch!

[Bonearzt]

Hey all, on a single rotor bass bone what position is double pedal Bb in. With or without trigger. If with trigger slide tuned to F or E?
Sorry if this is a pretty basic question, but I just cannot find that pitch!

Fake lipped down flat 2nd, or LONG flat 7th with the F tuning slide pulled to the end!!

[Basbasun]

Hey all, on a single rotor bass bone what position is double pedal Bb in. With or without trigger. If with trigger slide tuned to F or E?
Sorry if this is a pretty basic question, but I just cannot find that pitch!

That depends. Are you used to play false tones? Can you play the F under the staff on 2nd? The double pedal BBb is on that same position.
It is (strange enough) playeble on the position you play low Db, V5 if in F, V4 if in E.

[bigbandbone]

Thanks Bonearzt and Basbasun for these alternatives. Are they all false tones? Are any a true note that will slot well once I get the hang of it?

[baileyman]

On a little horn, that note kinda sorta slots. It's bounded below but free above, so it feels like leaning into the lower bound a bit.

[Basbasun]

" Are they all false tones? Are any a true note that will slot well once I get the hang of it?"
Well, the false notes line up from the double pedal that is a major seventh below the normal pedal. The series is od numberd like 1 3 5 7 and so on. So in the second position the series is BBb - F - D - Ab (flat) - C. What is most used is the F what singel trigger player often us to play low C and B. The other tones mentioned is another question, they cant be explained with the false tone theory.

[bigbandbone]

Another question for all of you Teele devotees. When you play the long sets of low tones do you remove the mouthpiece from your lips between notes, or keep contact with your lips between notes.
I seem to get a better result if I break contact between notes and then re-establish contact. But if that's wrong I'd like too know.