Forming an embouchure

[Rusty]

I’m interested in hearing if you think about how you form your embouchure and set your lips before you play.

I think it was Dick Noel that recommended imagining or mouthing the word ‘imp’ as you breathe in, with the ‘p’ bringing the lips together.

Do some of you set your lips a certain way before you breathe in, or aim for a certain feel or placement of your lips on the mouthpiece, or do you just focus on your breath in and tongue and blow?

[Doug Elliott]

Absolutely. I follow a very careful setting procedure that keeps me totally consistent. This is what I do and teach:

Wet the lips.
Form the embouchure as if already playing, with the lips touching.
Place the mouthpiece, with playing pressure (or more).
Breathe through the corners while keeping theouthpiece pressure on.
Push corners forward.simultaneously with blowing for the note.
Mouthpiece pressure stays totally constant throughout. That's the hardest part, but the most important.
Also the jaw position and horn angle stays the same throughout, it starts and ends in playing position.

[Redthunder]

I used to never do this, and I also played with a totally dry embouchure. It was awful for my chops, and took me many many months of practicing Doug's and Dave Wilken's recommendations for it to stick. For me the jaw position is still tricky at times. Practicing bass trombone and lightly practicing trumpet went a long way in also helping me figure the correct sensation out, as it was a little easier to adapt and rely less on habits that I had formed playing tenor trombone since it was entirely new to my chops.

[harrisonreed]

I do it, for sure. For me it's mostly about remembering where my lower jaw needs to be positioned (I have an underbite, and I've learned that it's important to not try and fix that while playing). If the teeth form the correct "plane", then the mouthpiece will naturally go onto the right spot, and the corners form around that.

[cigmar]

I remember reading something Doug said that it's not so much about firming the corners, but firming the area directly in front of the lower canine teeth. This has helped me.

[Doug Elliott]

Firm the area below the corners. On me that's pretty far back from the canine teeth. But everybody's mouth is different.

Most people tend to put the tension too far forward. Except the ones who put it too far back. I like putting it down from where the corners are in resting position - not smiling or pursing.

[biggiesmalls]

A quote from Buddy Baker's book that I have found helpful:

"The mouthpiece should not feel like part of the embouchure!"

[Kbiggs]

A quote from Buddy Baker's book that I have found helpful:

"The mouthpiece should not feel like part of the embouchure!"

Interesting. I had always thought that the mpc was an essential part of the embouchure, aside from freebuzzing. Could you say more about this?

[biggiesmalls]

A quote from Buddy Baker's book that I have found helpful:

"The mouthpiece should not feel like part of the embouchure!"

Interesting. I had always thought that the mpc was an essential part of the embouchure, aside from freebuzzing. Could you say more about this?

Sorry, I could, but the can of worms is just too big, and I don't want to hijack the thread.



.

[Kbiggs]

Sorry, I could, but the can of worms is just too big, and I don't want to hijack the thread.

.

What about a new thread?

[biggiesmalls]

Feel free to start a new thread, but I'm gonna grab a bag of popcorn and see where it goes before participating.

For context, here's the entire paragraph:

"I prefer a wet embouchure over the dry (although I know good players who use a dry embouchure) because: (1) it causes pressure from the mouthpiece to be less effective (you then have to learn to get the high notes the correct way- by proper embouchure formation and breath support), (2) it seems to facilitate interval flexibility (and I don't mean by scooting the mouthpiece around on the lips) and (3) it tends to give one more of a feeling of isolation from the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece should not feel like a part of the embouchure!"

Buddy Baker, Tenor Trombone Method

[Rusty]

Absolutely. I follow a very careful setting procedure that keeps me totally consistent. This is what I do and teach:

Wet the lips.
Form the embouchure as if already playing, with the lips touching.
Place the mouthpiece, with playing pressure (or more).
Breathe through the corners while keeping theouthpiece pressure on.
Push corners forward.simultaneously with blowing for the note.
Mouthpiece pressure stays totally constant throughout. That's the hardest part, but the most important.
Also the jaw position and horn angle stays the same throughout, it starts and ends in playing position.

Thanks Doug! Do you have a way of determining the optimum mouthpiece pressure? Or is the eveness of pressure on the teeth (with the lips in between) the main thing?

[Doug Elliott]

Optimum mouthpiece pressure is enough so that you can feel a solid relationship between the rim and the teeth or gums. It should not be "floating" and as you manipulate the slide it shouldn't jiggle around from the motion of your body.

I see far more problems due to too little pressure, than too much.

"No pressure" is an interesting trick but has no use in the real world of playing.

[cigmar]

Doug, can you give an approximation as to how far apart the teeth should be. Thanks.

[torobone]

Let me offer a different opinion.

I never wet my lips anymore. I played with wet lips for 40 years, but stopped 12 years ago. The main reasons I stopped are it hides the amount of lip compression I want to use, and my lips are wet in under one second from the time I start playing. An interesting side benefit is I used to go through at least 3 tubes of lip balm per year; now I use about 1/2 tube per year.

I had an opportunity to sit with Bill Watrous a very long time ago on a 4-hour flight. He mentioned using very little pressure. Another thing he mentioned was a teacher who put his trombone on top of an upright piano, and he was required to be able to make a sound on the trombone without using his hands or moving the trombone. I find this extreme, but then I don't play like Bill. I remember feeling like a deer in the headlights during this part of our conversation.

I use less pressure than most of the people I play with. One fellow is a student of Doug's, and we often talk about embouchures during breaks at rehearsal. Perhaps I use more pressure than Bill Watrous, and less than Doug.

My embouchure continues to evolve. I find that I am able to do things in a way that I understand what I'm doing, and I can see the effect on my playing. I started making a list of my progress, but it's taking a while to even get it in shape to share with my mentors. In the last year, for example, I have moved my tongue to a more neutral position away from the bottom of my mouth. This helps me with tonguing speed. (This is not really embouchure, but there you go and it comes to mind.)

I would discourage people from worrying too much about minutia, like the approximation of how far apart teeth are. In fact, I change this based on the size of aperture I'm using.

Your experiences will be different than mine.

[Doug Elliott]

Bill Watrous was well known for refusing to play loud. That's how he got away with very little pressure. In the real world most people need to be able to play loud enough to require some mouthpiece pressure to seal against the air pressure. And to provide stability, which is the real reason for needing some pressure - it's all about stability.

Instability in one way or another is how chops get in trouble.

[torobone]

True, Doug.
The reasons for me changing my approach was first to improve. I felt I had been stagnating for a number of years face-wise. Looking back, I worked on some important things like learning to play a melody.

The second part is I have met a number of fine trombonists who are aging badly - some in their 70s, and some much younger.

For me, stability comes from building chop strength, and using less pressure than I did before. Currently, I don't get a red ring on my face, even after playing for a couple of hours. My playing is loud enough in live settings.

I find that many questions on this forum indicate that people are behind me on their journey. I'm hoping my journey has many more years ahead.

[Doug Elliott]

I don't judge what anybody might need to change until I see what they're already doing. There's no specific "correct" amount of mouthpiece pressure; what one person thinks is too much pressure might be too little for another. Lip tissue texture and muscle tone is very different on different people, and the same goes for the shape of the teeth and gums.

There are a lot of things that go toward creating stability, and sufficient pressure is just one of them. Whatever amount is sufficient for the individual, and of course too much is still too much.

[afugate]

I don't judge what anybody might need to change until I see what they're already doing. There's no specific "correct" amount of mouthpiece pressure; what one person thinks is too much pressure might be too little for another. Lip tissue texture and muscle tone is very different on different people, and the same goes for the shape of the teeth and gums.

There are a lot of things that go toward creating stability, and sufficient pressure is just one of them. Whatever amount is sufficient for the individual, and of course too much is still too much.

Is it worth clarifying that pressure isn't the same as "mashing the mouthpiece" against your face and teeth?

Doug, I recall taking a lesson from you where you demonstrated the amount of pressure you use. When you did, I noticed that it looks like your pressure doesn't come from jamming the horn against your face. It's as though your embouchure is formed in such a way that the pressure comes from you to the mouthpiece. (Note: I tried to make that somewhat descriptive but also vague so as not to mislead someone to do something incorrect.)

My observation is that pressure is bad when it cuts off circulation to the underlying tissue. Perhaps the wrong kind of pressure can prevent the facial muscles from pulling in the correct directions.

The bottom line for me, pressure or not, is I am much more successful when I form my embouchure before the mouthpiece touches my face.

--Andy in OKC

[BurckhardtS]

I think it's important point that it's also very difficult to be a judge of how much mouthpiece pressure you are using. I think Dave Wilken shared or mentioned part of a study somewhere that said that while pros seemed to answer that they did not use very much pressure, that when they recorded how much pressure used in playing, they all thought their equipment was malfunctioning because it was reading off of the charts, and it just turned out that the professionals used way more mouthpiece pressure than they think.

[Doug Elliott]

Yes, one year at the ITF in Nashville somebody was doing that study. Pros use much more mouthpiece pressure than they think, but it's consistent. Students typically use a lot less and a lot more, variably.

[Wilktone]

I think it's important point that it's also very difficult to be a judge of how much mouthpiece pressure you are using. I think Dave Wilken shared or mentioned part of a study somewhere that said that while pros seemed to answer that they did not use very much pressure, that when they recorded how much pressure used in playing, they all thought their equipment was malfunctioning because it was reading off of the charts, and it just turned out that the professionals used way more mouthpiece pressure than they think.

I think this is the specific article I was referencing:

https://books.google.com/books?id=TvpZy ... ng&f=false

Dave

[BurckhardtS]

Thanks Dave!

[torobone]

The bottom line for me, pressure or not, is I am much more successful when I form my embouchure before the mouthpiece touches my face.

--Andy in OKC

I find this to be a very insightful comment.

[Bach5G]

The bottom line for me, pressure or not, is I am much more successful when I form my embouchure before the mouthpiece touches my face.

--Andy in OKC

I find this to be a very insightful comment.

This is where free buzzing is useful if done correctly.