TromboneChat

this Sunday I will make the short drive to Austin, TX to be setup for a Thein large-bore tenor. I will possibly walk away with a horn or an order

leading up to it, I will prepare music that I wish to play while trying out the different setups, including excerpts, solos, etudes, exercises, etc

I have a few reasons for wanting to possibly change horns, and the one horn I did try at ITF I liked.

Since playing all manner of Thein tenors isn't always easy to coordinate, if you have questions about Thein horns or the process for testing their horns I'll be happy to find out

also, if you have any advice for trying out horns and don't mind sharing, please chime

- Sam

Just remember to bring a few different mouthpieces you use. Not every horn plays nice with the mouthpiece you think is best.

Good luck!

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jul 11, 2017, 06:47PMJust remember to bring a few different mouthpieces you use. Not every horn plays nice with the mouthpiece you think is best.

Good luck!

you are correct ! when I played the one Thein horn at their booth, I was trying out mouthpieces bc I won a raffle for a Thein piece !
I tried them blind and choose a Thein PW - 5GS

extenuating circumstances (special lunch with Bill Watrous), I didn't have with me my own Greg Black

Thein also had a line of I think Japanese pieces, and one I did like, and was plated something like Rose-Gold. Maybe Peter Steiner models ? btw his recital was awesome. he plays in Vienna

also btw they should have all the bells and whistles for each model - bells, slides, leadpipes, valves....you know. I am verily eager

Coincidentally, the model that worked best for me was the same one I played at ITF. It is the Bel Canto model. I suppose it can be dubbed the Peter Steiner model; he helped develop it, and he played a wonderful recital at ITF.

Tony Wise was a gracious host. Got some great stories and advise from them.

There were 5 models at Thein House Texas: three large tenors, a small bore, and an alto. I was consumed with the large tenors so that is all I played. The first two I tried (one was the Universal) had screw bells, which is what I will choose. The Marcus Bonna (spelling ?) case is in the neighborhood of $700 so I might look elsewhere, but Tony said he's put it in regular holding on a plane with no extra padding and no problems. That sounds good.

I drove from San Antonio to Austin but I had a short warmup beforehand. When I got there I played a few Brad Edward's Lip Slurs on my horn, then played the large models. I enjoyed the colors possible on them right away. The middle horn (don't remember the model name) had a kranz on the bell, and one of those springs in the slide. The spring thing threw me for a loop...just not used to it. The last model I tried was the Bel Canto. It was more unique, with promise of colors and better articulation than my BachGreenhoe. High range was different, but not impossible. The valve sound was awesome, as was the connection of Db to F in Organ Symphony. Overall, sound was the biggest difference. It was refined. The slide was great. I tried three valve caps and the medium was best. There was also a "longer" tuning slide but there weren't major intonation issues so we skipped that.

I played A la maniere de Bach and Stravinsky, a rochut down the octave, and excerpts.

On my usual Greg Black New York 5M

Etc

I also tried about 5 or 6 leadpipes. All screw-in

The small bore and Alto had what would be pressfit

Apparently there are more options in Germany ! I'd like to go someday

I tested horns for a few hours, we went out for chicken wings, and went back and played a few more hours

Good write-up!  I'm curious to hear what you think of the Thein long-term and in a section.  Keep us posted.

Quote from: Sliphorn on Jul 16, 2017, 10:35PMGood write-up!  I'm curious to hear what you think of the Thein long-term and in a section.  Keep us posted.

I agree with this as well. So few players play Thein trombones here that I'l also be curious as to how you "fit in" with a section.

I think Michael Masson, Stefan Schulz, and Jesper Sørensen play Thein. I could be wrong.
And they sound fantastic! 

Quote from: tsmart on Yesterday at 12:29 PMI think Michael Masson, Stefan Schulz, and Jesper Sørensen play Thein. I could be wrong.
And they sound fantastic! 
Wouldn't disagree. Maybe Jalapeño plans to work with them exclusively. Just pointing out the few number of players that play Thein. I didn't say no one played them.

I think it's being implied that a Thein might only blend in a section of Theins.

The idea that three pros playing an Edwards, a Conn, and a Thein (say, Alessi, Sauer, and Ben van Djik) couldn't blend as a section is pretty ridiculous. If people have trouble blending it's usually because they are beginners, or trying to hide a small bore (which is a different instrument altogether) in section of large bores.

There is an old story reported by Doug Yeo in his review of the Boston Symphony Orchestra Low Brass Section (ITA Journal):

A guest conductor came in to conduct the BSO some time in the 1940s.  After the concert he complimented the trombones on their blend, commenting that they must have matched instruments.  At the time Jacob Raichman (1st) was playing a Bach 36, the 2nd trombone (his name escapes me) was playing a Conn 88H (8H with a trigger) and John Coffey, bass trombone, was playing a Reynolds.  So much for matched instruments.

Not exactly a Thein, but I was at the Shires factory this past weekend and picked up a German bass bell for my horn. Though the initial preconception was that it'd be for "special uses", it turned out to be a happy medium for me, and based on my experience, should blend well with the groups I play in.  Can't wait to give it a try in rehearsals in August.

Same goes for the slide I ended up getting, too - for me it plays and sounds different from what the specs "suggest" it should.

So I have no doubt that a player can make an "oddball" horn fit right in.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Yesterday at 01:51 PMI think it's being implied that a Thein might only blend in a section of Theins.

The idea that three pros playing an Edwards, a Conn, and a Thein (say, Alessi, Sauer, and Ben van Djik) couldn't blend as a section is pretty ridiculous. If people have trouble blending it's usually because they are beginners, or trying to hide a small bore (which is a different instrument altogether) in section of large bores.

Well you made your point by picking three great players. In the freelance world you have a mixture of fine pros, rank amateurs, and everything in between. It's not ridiculous to think that the blend would not be perfect in a freelance scenario. One's own sound concept has a lot to do with this as well. But to each their own.

Well, if you want to talk about the freelance world, "rank amateurs" wouldn't blend in a section no matter what they're playing on, Thein or otherwise. They probably aren't getting hired for freelance work to begin with, since you have to be pretty versatile and adaptable  (blendy) to make it freelancing anyways.

Barring faulty instruments or just inappropriate ones (a 2b surrounded by .562 Chicago Bach 42s), the blend will be fine in a section of actual professional players, freelance or otherwise.

Now, at the very highest level, where the entire section is very in tune with their peers and already functioning at their best and playing with the same approach, sure, they might all go for the same equipment to get a particular sound for the section. If you're talking about the New York Phil section, sure. But freelance?

The further you get away from high level playing, I believe the onus falls even further on the player for blend, and not the equipment.

Not to mention the last I checked the NYP section was a blend of Edwards and Yamaha horns if not Edwards, Yamaha, and Shires. Even so, Thein trombones aren't that far out in comparison! E.g. the Rotterdam Philharmonic (where Ben van Dijk is bass trombone) is a mix of Courtouis and Thein trombones.

Maybe if you're going for a full German, leadpipeless 500/525 dualbore with a 9" bell or something that even on paper isn't similar to what everyone else is playing it might not blend well.... (I'm assuming Thein offers an authentic style German instrument but I'm not sure about it to be perfectly honest, I don't know their full offerings)... but the Thein horns I've played have all been great. If I had the inclination, I'm sure I could find something that worked for me just as I've done with my Shires horns.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Today at 05:14 AMWell, if you want to talk about the freelance world, "rank amateurs" wouldn't blend in a section no matter what they're playing on, Thein or otherwise. They probably aren't getting hired for freelance work to begin with, since you have to be pretty versatile and adaptable  (blendy) to make it freelancing anyways.

Barring faulty instruments or just inappropriate ones (a 2b surrounded by .562 Chicago Bach 42s), the blend will be fine in a section of actual professional players, freelance or otherwise.

Now, at the very highest level, where the entire section is very in tune with their peers and already functioning at their best and playing with the same approach, sure, they might all go for the same equipment to get a particular sound for the section. If you're talking about the New York Phil section, sure. But freelance?

The further you get away from high level playing, I believe the onus falls even further on the player for blend, and not the equipment.

I believe sound has a great deal to do with the player. Your 2B quote can come into question however. I'm actually in a section this week with a 2B, a new Shires large bore, Elkhart 88H on 3rd, and  Xeno Yamaha 822 on bass. Blend is great.
As yes Matt K we all know what the NYP section plays on. As I said before they are professionals at the highest level and one would expect them to blend well. And I only said I'd be curious to see what the Op's experience is once he begins working with others. I didn't say he wouldn't be able to blend.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/szs0z8njiavzfmx/AAD6YOoWYAfiU-acvqekWh6pa?dl=0

Follow up:

Tony Wise delivered my horn to my office this morning, with Zachary Bond in tow.

He brought both the screw and regular detachable red bell, but of course I chose the screw

The case is a Marcus Bonna, and the horn fits very nice.

I'll continue to use my Reunion Blues, Bc as a backpack setup it is more comfortable. Not hard and rigid
I'll use the MB if I travel, probably. It comes with a neat cloth folder that's zips onto the case and has straps for a bone stand

The trigger is the most close to open as I've felt on any valve.

The little bumps are called dots, and they experimented with the number and placement of them on the horn. There's a group on the bell section and also on the slide.

The counterweight is badas

Th slide is single bore.

It's made more like an American horn.

One leadpipe was included and I didn't care for characteristics, just the way it played.

Etc !

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jul 19, 2017, 12:44PMWouldn't disagree. Maybe Jalapeño plans to work with them exclusively. Just pointing out the few number of players that play Thein. I didn't say no one played them.

Part of three reason I got the horn is for better lead in a section and playing solos. For that I think I'm covered.

I had no problem tooting duets with my friend playing second ! (Very nice lows....centered)

Fwiw

Excellent posts so far.  What is the bore size of the slide?  Is the horn used?  What's going on with the slide crook?  Looks like the lacquer got chewed up.

Quote from: Sliphorn on Jul 22, 2017, 09:27PMExcellent posts so far.  What is the bore size of the slide?  Is the horn used?  What's going on with the slide crook?  Looks like the lacquer got chewed up.

I don't know they bore but I will guess .547. They have made this American style if that makes sense.

It's new, built about 3 weeks ago. That's tape residue to keep it from getting scratched ! 

Quote from: jalapeno on Jul 22, 2017, 09:37PMI don't know they bore but I will guess .547. They have made this American style if that makes sense.

It's new, built about 3 weeks ago. That's tape residue to keep it from getting scratched ! 
Ahh.  That makes sense.  I'd love to get confirmation of the actual bore size.  I've heard a few numbers thrown around, a few of them ridiculous on the surface of it.

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jul 19, 2017, 12:44PMWouldn't disagree. Maybe Jalapeño plans to work with them exclusively. Just pointing out the few number of players that play Thein. I didn't say no one played them.

On the same tangent, also like Tony Wise, I have an Edwards and two bells, in case it's needed
He mentioned for like really loud sounds the Edwards might be more appropriate. Other situations too, I'm sure (all Edwards section ? Etc)

Minus a valve.....if anyone has one 

So it sounds like the "Universal Tenor" ?

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jul 23, 2017, 08:31AMSo it sounds like the "Universal Tenor" ?

I think it depends on the person. For me the Universal sounded wider/bigger, more rounded articulations IIRC


I asked and the Bel Canto is .547 btw

my solo recital program on 10-26-17 at 8 pm central is as follows: I will live stream it

Barat - Andante & Allegro
Ewazen - Sonata
Freidlin - Towards the Light
Ewald - Quintet 1 mvt 1
Defaye - A la maniere de Bach
Defaye - A la maniere de Stravinsky
Davis - Trombone Institute of Technology

I hope you can watch it and give send me kisses 

and if you can go, there's a pizza party after 

Quote from: jalapeno on Oct 03, 2017, 03:45PMmy solo recital program on 10-26-17 at 8 pm central is as follows: I will live stream it

Barat - Andante & Allegro
Ewazen - Sonata
Freidlin - Towards the Light
Ewald - Quintet 1 mvt 1
Defaye - A la maniere de Bach
Defaye - A la maniere de Stravinsky
Davis - Trombone Institute of Technology

I hope you can watch it and give send me kisses 

and if you can go, there's a pizza party after 


Definitely won't live stream it, but maybe you can post a link to the video the next day so I can watch?

Yes my friend will professionally video record, two separate cameras ! Maybe break it up and put on the YouTube

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jul 18, 2017, 05:52AMI agree with this as well. So few players play Thein trombones here that I'l also be curious as to how you "fit in" with a section.

I play my Thein with no problems (!) in:

Wind Ensemble
Trombone Trio
Brass Quintet
Big Band (4th bone)
Bone Choir

It plays good soft and no problems gettingl loud.
Dark, bright, short, broad, no problem !
Still working on my own issues, though

Quote from: jalapeno on Oct 03, 2017, 09:01PMI play my Thein with no problems (!) in:

Wind Ensemble
Trombone Trio
Brass Quintet
Big Band (4th bone)
Bone Choir

It plays good soft and no problems gettingl loud.
Dark, bright, short, broad, no problem !
Still working on my own issues, though
Quote from: jalapeno on Oct 03, 2017, 09:01PMI play my Thein with no problems (!) in:

Wind Ensemble
Trombone Trio
Brass Quintet
Big Band (4th bone)
Bone Choir

It plays good soft and no problems gettingl loud.
Dark, bright, short, broad, no problem !
Still working on my own issues, though
Awesome. My only point was blending in "sound wise." If you've achieved that, wonderful!

Quote from: jalapeno on Oct 03, 2017, 09:01PMI play my Thein with no problems (!) in:

Wind Ensemble
Trombone Trio
Brass Quintet
Big Band (4th bone)
Bone Choir

It plays good soft and no problems gettingl loud.
Dark, bright, short, broad, no problem !
Still working on my own issues, though
Quote from: jalapeno on Oct 03, 2017, 09:01PMI play my Thein with no problems (!) in:

Wind Ensemble
Trombone Trio
Brass Quintet
Big Band (4th bone)
Bone Choir

It plays good soft and no problems gettingl loud.
Dark, bright, short, broad, no problem !
Still working on my own issues, though
Awesome. My only point was blending in "sound wise." If you've achieved that, wonderful!